The Great Immigration Debate ! ....
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the US contingent must have been bombarded with all the news and talking heads shows yakking about "The Great Immigration Debate" recently ....
I see many parallels between the US and Singapore as well ... indeed, in the countries that people aspire to migrate to .... (except that in Singapore's case, the traffic is both ways .... people wanting to get in, and wanting to get out ...
) they are all facing the immigrants conundrum to varying degrees ... and voices against immigration have been getting louder recently ....
I must say that my views towards immigrants have mellowed somewhat ... though I still believe in "societal assimilation", taking in the value set of the society that one migrates too, as well as assuming the "citizen's burdens" of that society ....
so what are your thoughts ? ... on immigration, migration, wherever you are, Singapore or overseas ? ...
I'll start the ball rolling with this little youtube video ....
The Immigration Debate -
big countries like US or down under should not make so much noise abt migration cos those coming in actually do them good with higher consumer spending which will help their economy... so they should be open abt it...
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That would work if these immigrants actually spent the money in this country. However, the illegal Latino immigrants send the bulk of their money back home, to the tune of US$30 billion a year:Originally posted by BrUtUs:big countries like US or down under should not make so much noise abt migration cos those coming in actually do them good with higher consumer spending which will help their economy... so they should be open abt it...
http://www.pewtrust.org/news/news_subpage.cfm?content_item_id=2021&content_type_id=14&page=nr3
So tell me again who's economy is benefitting from these illegals? -
well, put it this way, it depends on the pace of the societal assimilation
can you imagine, with the recent surge in the numbers of PRCs (falungong members included) coming to Singapore, we can be expected to change our way to fit in these newcomers?
similarly, the migration of Middle Eastern and Central Asian peeps only started few decades ago at most, I dont think its fair for the Australiam government to decide suddenly they had to change the society values just to accomodate these people. I remember laughing at one news extract where the one Muslim family protested the break-in of their house by the Aussie CT team. I mean, the issue is that there is a possibility that place is a terrorist hideout, and they shouldnt be considering whether there is women in the house or not, since there is more important issues at hand.
The kind of societal assimilation we are looking at should be one that happened over a long period of time, Singapore is a good example, we are basically in the Malay homeland, and it took 200 years before we decided that all four racial groups are here to stay, through thick and thin. -
I'm going to go out on a limb here.
If we're talking about skilled immigration, there really isn't a problem. There are limits to the number of people admitted, and that creates a filtering process through which people with the greatest contribution to make come through. All things being equal, if they've bothered to go through the hassle of the immigration process, they're probably motivated to make good on their lives in their new country.
Now here's where it gets contentious. Taking in refugees is a noble idea, but it does seem to cause a lot more problems than skilled migration.
First, their countries of origin tend to be in very poor state for them to be refugees in the first place, and this places limits on the skills that they bring along with them. While they're getting themselves upskilled (and that's not a given thing), it's a drain on the new country's coffers.
Second, the state of the original countries would be chaotic, and moving to a new country where rule of law is taken a lot more seriously can be a big adjustment to make.
Third, these people are not in their new countries by choice. One would think that they would appreciate having their lives saved, but more often than not they stay stuck in survival mode and try to get away with as much as they can, which doesn't gel well with civilised society.
To some extent, the above applies to illegal immigrants as well.
Like I said, morally I'm all for the idea of a refugee policy. The practical side of things, however, can get extremely messy. -
I land on the extreme line of immigration ...
If refugees want to come in , that's fine when their reasons are valid and checks out . Therefore I support detention centers for that purpose. Duty of the Country who takes them in is to make sure they speak the lingua franca of that country . Skill them up if they must - so that they become contributing citizens of the country
They ACCEPT THE RULES/LAWS and learn about the new culture they are going to integrate with . I don't see anyway how we can actually accomodate the "women have no rights rule or lower in status than men " in certain cultures.
If they don't like it , they can jolly well go back to where they came from coz i am frankly sick of middle easterns/africans making lewd remarks to girls who are wearing a proper attire yet in their eyes are skimpy and therefore "asking for it" . -
i think everyone here is saying that if you go to someone's place, and that person lets you stay, you jolly well have the common courtesy and decency to be part of that family instead of imposing your own nonsense on them..
like start some mini-Iran
or spread some f***in' disease
they talk so many goddamned ways
it's all greek to me -
what I am saying I support detention centers which alot of people don't agree withOriginally posted by the Bear:i think everyone here is saying that if you go to someone's place, and that person lets you stay, you jolly well have the common courtesy and decency to be part of that family instead of imposing your own nonsense on them..
like start some mini-Iran
or spread some f***in' disease
they talk so many goddamned ways
it's all greek to me
. That's my extreme line ( well it is considered extreme in australia LOL) and I am all for kicking them out of the country to where they come from if they refuse to conform. -
if you only knew who i work for
and yes.. ALL illegal immigrants should be detained... and those who have a case, MUST assimilate..
those who do not, must be deported... -
hahah rhonda told me and I think it is a great rule singapore have !Originally posted by the Bear:if you only knew who i work for
and yes.. ALL illegal immigrants should be detained... and those who have a case, MUST assimilate..
those who do not, must be deported... -
i've seen too many things which people don't see..
and about assimilation... you've seen the mess the idiot bleeding hearts caused..
much as i find Bush abhorrant, the latest Bill in the US, where they passed that English would be the language of the US, is the right one...
there are a bunch of idiots in the US calling it "racist".. but i would look at it this way.. you want to go to another country, you don't bring your baggage with you and refuse to learn the fundamentals of that country..
in that way, "start some mini-Iran" is happening in most places where the bleeding hearts forget that by allowing enclaves, it fractures the society and causes a lot of terrible tensions... -
seems like many of the of the peeps here support some sort of societal assimilation, as I've put it ...
keep them coming people ...
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Well, it's really just dichotomous, Fatum - you're either assimilating or invading, and what follows depends on your approach.
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well ... I think it's a bit greyer actually ... that's why I threw this thread up ...Originally posted by Gedanken:Well, it's really just dichotomous, Fatum - you're either assimilating or invading, and what follows depends on your approach.
is there a separation between cultural values and societal values and ethics ? ... can assimilation take place without sacrificing some part of who you are ? ... and I don't mean just chopsticks and chop suey ....
of course, if you throw in religion into the mix, the whole thing turns into a tinderbox ...
speaking to some of the people on both sides (both "natives" and emigrants) made me cringe ... there seem to be an implicit consensus that certain religions are inherently incompatible with each other .... and this manifest in their behaviour ... makes me glad that i'm an atheist sometimes, but that's fodder for another thread in itself eh ...
thing is though, somehow the notion of "citizenship" has taken a backseat in most countries that emigres aspire to, take Europe for example, back in the 70s, thousands of guests workers from turkey and the middle east were let into Europe much like Singapore imports workers from Bangladesh or indonesia today, they were encourage NOT to assimilate, to retain their own languages and cultures etc .... so now ... we hear europeans talking of a "fifth column" within their societies, a large mass of unemployed, alienated people some of whom barely speak the language of the land ... ripe pickings for Osama's acolytes .....
social behaviour and ethics is another thing ... an area, which, from my personal observations, many asian emigrants fail miserably to take note of ...
(but I'll leave this for a while first ... gotta take a drive to the airport ... ) -
Yes, folks. This country is going to hell in a handbasket, as far as illegal immigration is concerned.
Illegal Immigrants Free To Go
In case the link goes cold, here is the text of the article:
Illegal Immigrants Free To Go
Local police said they intercepted 20 illegal Mexican immigrants, but were ordered by immigration officials to let them go free.
Belmont County Sheriff Fred Thompson said his officers were instructed by federal immigration services to let all 20 illegal immigrants go free, and said his department has no choice but to follow the orders from immigration officials.
Thompson said officers stopped a van at 3 a.m. Tuesday which was traveling the wrong direction on Interstate 470 in St. Clairsville.
The officer discovered 20 illegal Mexican immigrants inside the van, including three who were previously deported. The officer immediately contacted immigration officials, who told him to let all 20 immigrants go.
"Once we find out they are illegals, it's like pat them on the back of the head and tell them, 'Go on down the road; you'll probably get stopped again,'" Thompson said.
The immigrants told the officer they were traveling through Ohio to obtain work in Manassas, Va.
Calls to Citizenship and Immigration Services as well as Immigration and Customs Enforcement have not been returned.
Stay with NEWS9 for continuing coverage.
-Renee Cardelli & Amy Post, NEWS9