Datuk Shrine
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i must affirm that i am not trying to create any conflicts but rather a discussion and know more about this topic.
i realise tt chinese taoists at times pray to deities such as Datuk. To me, datuk is a malay term and seems from the above picture ...a muslim? then how can Islam, a monotheistic religion come out with such deity worship? is it some deviated islamic teachings or is it well known and accepted. -
http://koayjetty.tripod.com/
picture too big so cant see.
basically its a mosque like shrine but incense were offered. sort of a cross-cultural worship style. -
Worshiping of the Datuk is neither Taoist nor Muslim. It is actually a native deity worshiping practice. There is a Datuk shrine in Singapore, at the Loyang Toa Pek Kong temple.
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ic..then how come its of muslim culture based?Originally posted by F Takumi:Worshiping of the Datuk is neither Taoist nor Muslim. It is actually a native deity worshiping practice. There is a Datuk shrine in Singapore, at the Loyang Toa Pek Kong temple. -
Worshipping 'Datuk', is a SE Asia Chinese customs. and those Chinese who worship these Datuks ARE Taoist. Folk Taoists to be exact, but nevertheless still falls under the umbrella of Taoism.
Why?
It is because ONLY Taoism can 'tolerate' and 'allow' the worship of other divines and spirits, as Taoism believes that the whole cosmic is full of spirits. If it is worthy of worship, a good spirit, promote goodness(which is the way of Tao) then Taoists can worship them, provided these Taoists understand the logic and do not lost the Taoist identity.
Thus, Taoist worship tiger spirit, Datuk, Mountain deity, earth deity etc.. all of them fall under the same catagory.
Datuk is a malay and of course a 'malay spirit'. however, it is the Taoist who worship them and thus does not concern the Islam religion. Datuk is a person, who had previously done alot for the society, a reputable person in the district etc..
If it is to be explained in Taoist term, Datuk falls under the level of 'tu di gong' aka Earth Deity. A spirit governing the district and can bestow blessings. -
I seek to differ. Praying to local deities is unorthodox Taoism. Classifying them under the Taoism umbrella is like saying Jehovah Witness is Christianity.Originally posted by wisely_xu:Worshipping 'Datuk', is a SE Asia Chinese customs. and those Chinese who worship these Datuks ARE Taoist. Folk Taoists to be exact, but nevertheless still falls under the umbrella of Taoism.
Why?
It is because ONLY Taoism can 'tolerate' and 'allow' the worship of other divines and spirits, as Taoism believes that the whole cosmic is full of spirits. If it is worthy of worship, a good spirit, promote goodness(which is the way of Tao) then Taoists can worship them, provided these Taoists understand the logic and do not lost the Taoist identity.
Thus, Taoist worship tiger spirit, Datuk, Mountain deity, earth deity etc.. all of them fall under the same catagory.
Datuk is a malay and of course a 'malay spirit'. however, it is the Taoist who worship them and thus does not concern the Islam religion. Datuk is a person, who had previously done alot for the society, a reputable person in the district etc..
If it is to be explained in Taoist term, Datuk falls under the level of 'tu di gong' aka Earth Deity. A spirit governing the district and can bestow blessings. -
nope. JW and Christianity, look carefully, examine and we can see differences in them and both cannot c0-exist together.Originally posted by F Takumi:I seek to differ. Praying to local deities is unorthodox Taoism. Classifying them under the Taoism umbrella is like saying Jehovah Witness is Christianity.
As for Taoism, its situation, scenario is diff from JW VS Christianity.
In the Taoist panthenon of deities, a part is orthodox Taoism's deities - San qing, Jade Emperor, four heavenly minister etc.. but another BIG portions, are what u mentioned 'local deities', but later classified under Taoist religion.
As long as the principal of Taoism is still there, there is no problem or issue worshipping local deities. Furthermore, Earth deities are recognized by Taoism. and 'dutuk' is classified under the catagory of earth deity. just that it is in malay term.
Tao is nameless, spirits are nameless. spirits, divines has no race or religion boundaries.
Taoism believe in 'upright and just, and the spirit is consider a deity'. (zheng zhi wei Shen). In ancient China, Sage and great men are honoured as patron deities, earth deities after their demised. It is part of the Taoist spiritual belief as well as a way to recognized and promote goodness thru the life examples of past people. -
Your definition of Taoism is very broad. I can then say that God, Allah and what-have-you are manifestations of the Jade Emperor in other languages.Originally posted by wisely_xu:nope. JW and Christianity, look carefully, examine and we can see differences in them and both cannot c0-exist together.
As for Taoism, its situation, scenario is diff from JW VS Christianity.
In the Taoist panthenon of deities, a part is orthodox Taoism's deities - San qing, Jade Emperor, four heavenly minister etc.. but another BIG portions, are what u mentioned 'local deities', but later classified under Taoist religion.
As long as the principal of Taoism is still there, there is no problem or issue worshipping local deities. Furthermore, Earth deities are recognized by Taoism. and 'dutuk' is classified under the catagory of earth deity. just that it is in malay term.
Tao is nameless, spirits are nameless. spirits, divines has no race or religion boundaries.
Taoism believe in 'upright and just, and the spirit is consider a deity'. (zheng zhi wei Shen). In ancient China, Sage and great men are honoured as patron deities, earth deities after their demised. It is part of the Taoist spiritual belief as well as a way to recognized and promote goodness thru the life examples of past people.
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1. i never assume Datuk shrine belongs to Taoism. infact in Pulau Kusu, the Keramat Datuk is in some context of muslimOriginally posted by laurence82:First question, why not post in the Taoism forum, but here?
But then again, guess who is the topic starter....
2. This forum is religious conflicts is suitable because i see a mix of both religions.
3. nothing to do with topic starter and whosoever.
4. what will be your second question? -
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Spi again...not related topic..deleted -
I agree fully with F Takumi.
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well, this IS Taoism, strictly speaking. And this is what is unique about Taoism and thus it is able to embrace alot of things and tolerate alot of issues.Originally posted by F Takumi:Your definition of Taoism is very broad. I can then say that God, Allah and what-have-you are manifestations of the Jade Emperor in other languages.
Look at any Taoist rituals, study them and you will realize that every rituals target diff deities group. and these deities that are invited and add up to hundredth, depending on the size of the rituals.
And the point i mentioned earlier, on righteous, upright spirit as deities, is a very important concept in the spiritual part of the religion. Without that, the number of deities in Taoism will at least 'decreased' by half.
Worship of the great soil, earth, land, started with a main deity (hou tu, goddess/deity of soil), but slowly, it become that every district has a tu di gong(earth deity) that report directly of the command of the Goddess of Soil(hou tu). Some of these earth deities are past sage and great men.
Allah, Christ etc.. Taoism RECONGIZED them, in fact as divines, spiritual deities. Worthy of worship. However ,the mutual respect comes in, cos out of respect, it is not appropriate to include them in the Taoist panthon.
Taoists have no problem in bowing, paying respect to any of them, if there is a need, out of respect etc..
It is ONLY in Taoist temples, one sees deities, Buddhas from Buddhism, Confuciusm etc.. This is respect, this is tolerance and embracement.
But because they are founders or God of other faith, it is best to remain a 'distant' out of respect.
However, although Taoism and Taoist recongnized them, it is also impt that Taoism/Taoists only recongnized them as Divines, worthy of respect but their way of seeking the truth, the path is DIFFERENT from Taoism and thus there is a need to differentiate too. And it is only to distingush which is which, which is the Taoist path and other path, and no conflict is to be involved because there is no need for that as all is seeking the Truth.