Appeal for help: How to get refunds from ntiparis?
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Hi all
With regards to the ntiparis topic,
Lately, I seen a surge in numbers of forumnites who posted replies asking for help in getting refunds or how to go about cancelling their accounts from the company. I have even received PMs or emails from some of you guys (dont worry, I will not reveal names).
I must confess I am not an ex agent, nor am I very familiar with their administrative and refund procedures.
This is an appeal for ex agents or present agents of the company to post their advice on how to go about getting refunds or cancelling accounts.
For those who have posted some advice on the previous topic before, please do reply here and explain clearly how to go about it. All help appreciated.
As for some of the guys who posted but have not appeared for some time, I will try to contact them to post here.
Cheers and regards
laurence
PS: You guys could go directly to CASE, but there is so much they can do if the company refuse to negotiate. -
I'm not an agent nor an ex-agent, but have helped my friends to refund.
First of all, how many days have you signed up as a member? I know the latest refund grace period is 60 days after we stormed into the office asking for refund. My friends haven't collected nor used the products, they got a 100% refund back.
2nd, have you collected or used the products? If you have collected and haven't used, you can still ask for refund. That might not be a standardised amount for refund. So you just demand.
3rd, if you have used or more than 60days, you won't be able to ask for any. Even if you go to CASE, the terms and conditions have stated 60 days, so CASE is not in position as that's the T&C. I have friends who asked for refund on the 61st day, no matter what they did, even to CID, nothing could be done.
As for cancel of the account, we have prepared a document for the members who want to cancel their accounts. It'll be an official document to state that they are out and no longer be responsible to what will happen to the company. If anyone wants it, I can send to you.
Rdgs,Originally posted by laurence82:Hi all
With regards to the ntiparis topic,
Lately, I seen a surge in numbers of forumnites who posted replies asking for help in getting refunds or how to go about cancelling their accounts from the company. I have even received PMs or emails from some of you guys (dont worry, I will not reveal names).
I must confess I am not an ex agent, nor am I very familiar with their administrative and refund procedures.
This is an appeal for ex agents or present agents of the company to post their advice on how to go about getting refunds or cancelling accounts.
For those who have posted some advice on the previous topic before, please do reply here and explain clearly how to go about it. All help appreciated.
As for some of the guys who posted but have not appeared for some time, I will try to contact them to post here.
Cheers and regards
laurence
PS: You guys could go directly to CASE, but there is so much they can do if the company refuse to negotiate. -
Thanks stormax, the refund part is clear
How about the case where one person got his account frozen and he cannot get his commission due to him?
I know some companies close account due to inactivity, and this is stated clearly in their terms and conditions.
But in this case, the management after hearing some people wana jump ship, close their acc, and refuse to pay the commission due. Sounds like damn arbitrary and political...but are there remedies for this? -
Er.. I need to know the details of this case to advise what to do.
1st, how did he know that account is frozen? He can't log in? Or is it server problem?
2nd, any evidence he has commission that he didn't receive. Is there any statement sent to him? In legal procedure, every company no matter is MNC, SME or MLM, it's a must.
3rd, how do you know that it is not due to inactivity? This will need documents and evidence to prove whether he is active, e.g. he has some people under him, he helped his people, etc.
From what I know of NTI, only when you hand in your official redrawal notification, the management will need 2 weeks to do what they need to do, before you are officially out of it. The common answer is ' the management will decide', and who is really the decision maker even for the refund, no written regulations are prepared.
I think the problem for many people is that there are no written agreement, legal documents or anything that will protect them.
Do tell me more so that I can see how I can offer my opinions. -
Hi laurence82 and stormax,
I was hoping to get my stuffs refunded from nuskin. It has been around 60+ days since i joined as their member. Is ntiparis a company like CASE whom i can approach? Or can you guys offer me any advice on how i should go about it?
Thanks in advance~ -
Hi,
1st of all, NTIparis is another MLM company, not a company like CASE.
As for NUSKIN, have you used their products? What are the stuffs you want to refund? Did you face any problem?
You can PM me, I will tell you step by step.
Cheers.Originally posted by flappy:Hi laurence82 and stormax,
I was hoping to get my stuffs refunded from nuskin. It has been around 60+ days since i joined as their member. Is ntiparis a company like CASE whom i can approach? Or can you guys offer me any advice on how i should go about it?
Thanks in advance~ -
Steps to get refund from the Company.
1. Talk to the company adminstration. Talk to a decision maker, GM, etc. If they refuse, determine on what grounds. Find out if the company is a member of DSAS. (U can also check DSAS's members in their website.)
2. If they are a member of DSAS, contact DSAS. If not go directly to CASE.
3. If CASE fails, call the Company manager back, and THREATEN to send a complaint letter to the newpapers. (straits times, business times, streats, today, etc). When I say threaten, I mean do up a letter of complain to show the manager at the spot. Say something like "If I dun get the refund which I am entitled to, this letter goes to the papers", and show him the letter.
Make sure however the letter is factual and not deflamatory in nature, starting from how you got to know the company. Make sure the name and location of the company are shown. Do NOT censor the name of the company.
If the manager still refuses to refund, send the letter to the papers. Dun threaten and dun take action. U are just going for your right.
This industry had already been plagued by black sheep. For this industry to be popular, get rid of the black sheep. -
This doesn't work practically.
If anyone who went there will know well that there's no decision maker. Where can you find a GM there?
NTIparis is NOT a member of DSAS. Even if the company is, DSAS doesn't take in complaints very much in consideration.
CASE is a simplified legal board, Without supportive documents, application, contract, even if you paid the fees, it will not do anything. Going to CASE DOES NOT mean you will win. It's like into legal sue matter, you will need everything just like going to a real law case.
For your information, writing to the media has been done by several people. They are very used to the practice.
Another thing on the refund, it'll determine very much on what is the ground for refunds.
My friends who have been trying so many times to get back their refund but no one/ staff even bother to help them. Feeling so helpless and really at their wits' end, they asked me to help. They are really helpless and I know how those who want to get back their money feel.
Can everyone who wants to get back your refund, prepare the below:
1) application form
2) contract ( some has, while some don't)
3) product invoice and collection form
4) anything else.
Anyone who doesn't have the above, I'll see what I can offer to help.
rdgs,Originally posted by airgrinder:Steps to get refund from the Company.
1. Talk to the company adminstration. Talk to a decision maker, GM, etc. If they refuse, determine on what grounds. Find out if the company is a member of DSAS. (U can also check DSAS's members in their website.)
2. If they are a member of DSAS, contact DSAS. If not go directly to CASE.
3. If CASE fails, call the Company manager back, and THREATEN to send a complaint letter to the newpapers. (straits times, business times, streats, today, etc). When I say threaten, I mean do up a letter of complain to show the manager at the spot. Say something like "If I dun get the refund which I am entitled to, this letter goes to the papers", and show him the letter.
Make sure however the letter is factual and not deflamatory in nature, starting from how you got to know the company. Make sure the name and location of the company are shown. Do NOT censor the name of the company.
If the manager still refuses to refund, send the letter to the papers. Dun threaten and dun take action. U are just going for your right.
This industry had already been plagued by black sheep. For this industry to be popular, get rid of the black sheep. -
It seems that ntiparis uses the following tactic to prevent refunds as much as possible. This is what I found out after a friend introduced me to its new policy which is constantly changing for whatever reasons( or rather excuses) they may have. I have also found out about this from its website and saw this memorandum:
AN IMPORTANT MEMO
TO: ALL VALUED MEMBERS & CLIENTS
REF: MEMORANDUM OF PURCHASE INTENT (MOPI)
In order to maintain a high level of professional service proficiency to members and valued clients, the Memorandum of Purchase Intent (MOPI) will be introduced effiective 5 July 2004.
The MOPI is primarily aimed at minimizing disruption to our corporate marketing software system and general administration.
Your attention is greatly appreciated.
After u bought their products if u ever have, u will be asked to sign this to prevent goods from being refunded. Here's a link to the picture of the agreement that u have to sign:
[url]http://www.ntiparis.com/nti_club/e_news.asp -
OkOriginally posted by stormax:Er.. I need to know the details of this case to advise what to do.
1st, how did he know that account is frozen? He can't log in? Or is it server problem?
2nd, any evidence he has commission that he didn't receive. Is there any statement sent to him? In legal procedure, every company no matter is MNC, SME or MLM, it's a must.
3rd, how do you know that it is not due to inactivity? This will need documents and evidence to prove whether he is active, e.g. he has some people under him, he helped his people, etc.
From what I know of NTI, only when you hand in your official redrawal notification, the management will need 2 weeks to do what they need to do, before you are officially out of it. The common answer is ' the management will decide', and who is really the decision maker even for the refund, no written regulations are prepared.
I think the problem for many people is that there are no written agreement, legal documents or anything that will protect them.
Do tell me more so that I can see how I can offer my opinions.
Anyway, from what i noe, he has commissions due to him. But the reason for closing was rather arbitrary - that because it is suspected (by the top leaders or management) that the network of his upline is shifting to another coy, thus he and others within his upline network has their accounts frozen.
As for details, i will ask him to come up to clarify.
And yes you are right. Reading from many posts here, nti seems to change its policy and contract agreements now and then. Different people signed different forms, or do not have receipts for purchases made. Some people ask me for help coz they made purchases, but had not yet receive goods. Worse, with no receipts, how to claim?
This is indeed very problematic.Sigh -
but according to MTI:Originally posted by RHluvW:It seems that ntiparis uses the following tactic to prevent refunds as much as possible. This is what I found out after a friend introduced me to its new policy which is constantly changing for whatever reasons( or rather excuses) they may have. I have also found out about this from its website and saw this memorandum:
AN IMPORTANT MEMO
TO: ALL VALUED MEMBERS & CLIENTS
REF: MEMORANDUM OF PURCHASE INTENT (MOPI)
In order to maintain a high level of professional service proficiency to members and valued clients, the Memorandum of Purchase Intent (MOPI) will be introduced effiective 5 July 2004.
The MOPI is primarily aimed at minimizing disruption to our corporate marketing software system and general administration.
Your attention is greatly appreciated.
After u bought their products if u ever have, u will be asked to sign this to prevent goods from being refunded. Here's a link to the picture of the agreement that u have to sign:
[url]http://www.ntiparis.com/nti_club/e_news.asp
Multi-level Marketing and Pyramid Selling
What were the amendments made in 2001 to the Exclusion Order?
The Exclusion Order 2001 continued to maintain that insurance companies and master franchises would be excluded from the MLM Act.
However, it also introduced the following rules for direct selling companies:
Safeguards - A participant cannot be required to provide any benefit or acquire any commodity in order to become a participant in the scheme, other than the purchase of demonstration equipment which is not for resale, at no more than cost price and for which no commission can be given out. A legitimate multi-level marketing scheme would not impose a financial risk on salespersons. For example, salespersons should be entitled to full refunds, under reasonable commercial terms, for any inventories kept or purchased by them which are not sold to end consumers, so long as the inventories are returned within a period of 60 days.
isnt they go against the act? -
yes. doing in loopholes as the target group are too young to defence themsevles.Originally posted by 44l:but according to MTI:
Multi-level Marketing and Pyramid Selling
What were the amendments made in 2001 to the Exclusion Order?
The Exclusion Order 2001 continued to maintain that insurance companies and master franchises would be excluded from the MLM Act.
However, it also introduced the following rules for direct selling companies:
Safeguards - A participant cannot be required to provide any benefit or acquire any commodity in order to become a participant in the scheme, other than the purchase of demonstration equipment which is not for resale, at no more than cost price and for which no commission can be given out. A legitimate multi-level marketing scheme would not impose a financial risk on salespersons. For example, salespersons should be entitled to full refunds, under reasonable commercial terms, for any inventories kept or purchased by them which are not sold to end consumers, so long as the inventories are returned within a period of 60 days.
isnt they go against the act? -
Indeed, we will need everyone to work as a team. working individually won't help anyone. For people without receipts, there are ways to claim and ask for refund, I had done it b4. But we will need to know every situation to know how we can help.Originally posted by laurence82:Ok
Anyway, from what i noe, he has commissions due to him. But the reason for closing was rather arbitrary - that because it is suspected (by the top leaders or management) that the network of his upline is shifting to another coy, thus he and others within his upline network has their accounts frozen.
As for details, i will ask him to come up to clarify.
And yes you are right. Reading from many posts here, nti seems to change its policy and contract agreements now and then. Different people signed different forms, or do not have receipts for purchases made. Some people ask me for help coz they made purchases, but had not yet receive goods. Worse, with no receipts, how to claim?
This is indeed very problematic.Sigh -
441 has pointed out the section of the law I regularly referred to when I talked about ntiparis in the other topic.
Please note that as there is no precedent of any contravention of the amendment, this section, as well as other sections, has not been debated or clarified in the court..yet.
Lack of specific industrial regulations and standards in MLM allow many scams to exploit this section of the law.
Let me open this section for debate.
Take nti for example.
By right, you are not supposed to purchase anything to join the company, nor do you receive commissions upon your downlines payment of registrations fees. The first action leads to the contravention of this section, while the second action point out the trait of a pyramid scheme.
When I first entered nti for a presentation, I was asked almost immediately to purchase the products in order to join the company. Many of us have noted this, by referring to the replies in the other thread. Remember that you are always asked to join in for $288, products included?
This become a norm, join the company, pay 288 bucks, join the company, pay 288 bucks...untill its almost impossible to distinguish 288 bucks as product + registration fees, or registration fees alone...
Someone told me recently, in nti recent 'trend' in shifting its membership policies and refund agreement, its began to state that $35 is the registration fees.
All these lead to few questions. Why do I have to purchase the $288 set? Why cant I pay just $35, and choose to purchase or sell any of the products in any combination I choose? Why must I buy even a set of anything together with the registration fees just to join the scheme? And fulfilling these criteria to join the scheme, my upline began to receive commission immediately, based on company policy of members purchasing the 288 bucks set immediately!?
This is uncannily like frontloading and earning direct from a newbie registration fees as whole.
Secondly, I stated this once, and I will state this again, a company exist to sell its goods or services Another form is investment, where in simple terms, you invest to provide capital for the company (legally of course). Its like lending people money, and you will receive interest as returns, in investment, its called dividends upon company profits. That company of course use your money in the operation of selling its good or services.
As many can see, the observation is that nti aggressively recruit. There is really less emphasis on the products. Some agents blatantly said products doesnt matter. I know MLM is also about earning great income, but you DO NOT forgo selling things.
Going back to the law, nti does not legally break the law. It has goods, it has cleverly differentiate registration fees and product purchase. But it does not resolve the issue of the agents agressive recruitment nor the policy of tying up products purchase with registration fees and participation. It does not hide the fact many agents agressively recruit people, and sales are made thru this recruitement, and the monthly $50 input.
Remember that aromatheraphy and other stuff nti sell are what we called oestantious good, or luxury good. Being highly priced and without any obvious beneficial value, how are some of the agents able to sell and earn so much, especially when their target market seems to be teens without much money? Some, without batting an eyelid, could tell you that it all comes down to recruitment, not products.
All these actions lead to one thing. There is a lack of a lot of physical evidence in terms of company written documents, and the existence of good makes it hard to clamp down on nti because of this very section of the law. Unless you got hard evidence that members acquire benefits directly and explicitly from recruitment, you cant go banging on the police door.
What is substantial is from the observation of nti daily operations, its unofficial policies, marketing techniques and behaviour of agents that may help clamp on nti.
I remember one thing i read on S888.com (or SMI case, either one) flouting the MLM law, where its stated that they do not legally break the law, but they are running the company in the 'spirit of a pyramid'.
Essentially, some people boils it down to some black sheeps. But this 'black sheep' is massive in number, with some of the forumnites posting that top leaders are doing this too.
I am sure companies trying to earn by recruitment are no different from companies with lousy management, who cant make their sheeps behave. Coz the effect is the same at the end of the day - many youths who lost money in the course of hoping to achieve their dreams. Plus the blatant breaking of law by so many people, I am sure the gahmen wont be standing idly by... -
For curiousity sake, you all may prefer to read PP v Tan Un Tian 1994 and PP v S888.com 1999. They are in the Singapore Law Report.
I bring these two up for discussion some time later. -
Laurence82 said it right. It's time to get back what are rightfully yours.
NTI has been playing much on young people's knowledge and mentality.
We need to get it right now. isn't it -
what the fark, my sis kena jioed down to nti, luckily she came back and ask me, else i will be losing my sis....
too bad she paid 288 bucks, plus extra 35 bucks for reg..
I ask her some stuff on the refunds policy and also noted a few things.
No refund except for case by case basis, and which must be accompanied by written notice, and our stormax thankfully has the format for this written notice.
Why so troublesome? Other companies refund policies are much simpler and without fuss. Mostly, if ur accounts show no spending or transactions for some time, its automatically struck off. And refund policies are done without fuss.
Second thing, u can sell ur distributorship, meaning accounts. Hmm, another 'unique' feature i have seen so far. Not surprising, since the newspapers has mentioned this too ,and by ther binary system.
Thirdly, some people i contacted says this company is 'backed up' by Lee and Lee. Without going into debate why such things need not be proof of legality, is this statement true in the first place? -
Nowadays seems to have more and mroe people asking for refunds form ntiparis, why?
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Legal firm is only advisor to legal matters not on their daily events, will not interfere to any documents or statements that they release to the public. Will check if the language is against the law or within the loopholes. As for Lee and Lee, it is just a legal firm that will provide their services to any company that request their legal knowledge with a sum of legal fees.Originally posted by laurence82:Thirdly, some people i contacted says this company is 'backed up' by Lee and Lee. Without going into debate why such things need not be proof of legality, is this statement true in the first place?
You can call up and check. It's not a big deal to use Lee and Lee's service
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meaning a legal firms only deal with daily mundane legal matters ,but does not vouch for company legality, in this aspect, being a legal MLM coy?
Btw, a point to note, nti up to now seems not to have product catalogue, my sis (being the foolish her) bought on basis on looking at products on the shelves...
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Yes. Legal is a very subjective thing. For bad companies, they used legal firms to do bad matters thru the loopholes of the law. For some companies, they use legal to protect themselves, while some use only when someone or some companies sue them or via.Originally posted by laurence82:meaning a legal firms only deal with daily mundane legal matters ,but does not vouch for company legality, in this aspect, being a legal MLM coy?
Btw, a point to note, nti up to now seems not to have product catalogue, my sis (being the foolish her) bought on basis on looking at products on the shelves...
Being legal MLM co in Singapore is very easy. And you do not have to even follow DSAS or even MLM law, if the company has experience in going round the law. MLM law bonded only those that registered themselves as MLM / DS companies, the rest are just norm local companies.
It's just your sister is naive and not exposed to real society, many young people too. Don't blame her. -
Not too sure abt refunds...but heard from my fren that she has yet get her so-called "candle perfumes"..from the day she signed up until now, i think it's more than 6mths....reason given..stocks have yet arrived..in anyway, i believe that's bullshits...even if you order a car..does it really takes more than 6mths for it to arrive? I dun noe abt that..but this kinda thing really sounds ridiculous..
Sometimes i really wonder..if those stuffs are really that fantastic...y Guardian and those pharmacies aren't selling them since they're such good stuffs and look promising?
In any way, i'm juz an anti-MLM-ist.
Originally posted by laurence82:meaning a legal firms only deal with daily mundane legal matters ,but does not vouch for company legality, in this aspect, being a legal MLM coy?
Btw, a point to note, nti up to now seems not to have product catalogue, my sis (being the foolish her) bought on basis on looking at products on the shelves... -
Just look at this ... isn't it clear that the NTI logo has been pasted on top of a snapshot of a building using Adobe Photoshop? This picture was extracted with the help of Sothink SWF Decompiler from NTI's flash presentation at www.ntiparis.com . It seems as if they don't even have a building in Indonesia, or even a branch there!
At least if they want to Photoshop and sw*ndle more people, do it right, do it the first time, as their international pr*sident says!
If the image above does not appear right, go to http://dmneipdr.tripod.com/nosuchthing.jpg .
The vocabulary throughout the br*inwashing site is good, but the grammar s*cks! Don't tell me all those employees are self-graduated?[/img] -
Hello, jookhai. Your tripod link is not working.
In what way it looks photoshoped, and how about some agents or rather top distributors who say they went and saw the buidling?
Btw, I remember a link to WWSN where they talk about how to photoshop an image to make it look like the company has a whole buidling as the corporate hq. will post it up. -
i recently joined NTI paris on 17th oct, sunday. i regretted my decision the very next day, it was only then i realise how it was a scheme to pyramid selling. I didnt want to join at first, but my so called "friends" persuaded me saying cant i trust the integrity of him and the others that this was not a scheme? with this i gave in, i paid $611 for opening of 2 accounts. (big mistake)
company account opening: (slot = per account in the pyramid)
1 slot > $300+
2 slot > $611
3 slot > $800+
4 slot > $1000+
7 slot > $2000+
As they were close on monday, i went down to the company on tuesday to try and get an refund. The process of refund was not successful. The so called "incharge" talk to me about why and why i wanted a refund and seems agitated when i still intended on a refund after his 3 hours explaination.
He say that there was nothing he could do to help and it would be based on the company's management on whether my refund would be approved. After the submission of the refund form, (btw i didnt get my product on sunday when i sign up for this "thing"), they took the product out and said that its the company policy to give the product to the customer after purchase so i have to take home the product. they told me the process of refund would take around 1 week so i took the product and went home. (they say they will call me when the refund cheque is ready)
1 week past, i called the company. they say my refund is still pending and the process would take within a month(wtf!). disappointment in myself for being so dumb, stupid. i waited another 1 month.
1 month past, still no calls from them so i called them. reply was: refund still in pending, the manager in charge of refund is not in singapore and will only return around mid-dec. i asked them is the manager the only one with the authority with refund, they say yes, so what can i do?
i feel so f*** up now. i am still within the 60 days limit, so i thought what if 60 days past then they can just say the refund not valid coz over 60 days, but the lady replied, its valid coz i made the refund on the 19th of october tuesday but i still think i wouldnt be getting a refund.
is there anyone who can help me?? i am desperate now. everyday i think about how trust in "friends" would get me in trouble.
pls help me