Originally posted by laurence82:it could be
a) in denial
b) greed
c) dump too much money into it (you will appreciate this behaviour when you hang around gamblers and traders)
d) lying
and so on
its kinda silly to ask a forumer to guess intentions or personal thoughts
eee...like that also kena say by you as silly, i never ask him, was pointing out some point thats all.
Originally posted by mihiro:eee...like that also kena say by you as silly, i never ask him, was pointing out some point thats all.
i didnt say u lar
I’m just amazed at the explanations I read on trizzard. There’s like some disconnect from reality there.
First of all, there’s the explanation that SE simply uses a customer rebate program, just like any company offers rebates and discounts. It’s just totally bizarre. Let’s think about how rebate programs work. A rebate, as most companies do it, is basically a discount. The purpose of the discount is to incentivise the customer to spend more than he or she normally would.
So let’s say it costs me $0.30 to make a curry puff which I sell for $1.00. So I make $0.70 profit on each curry puff. My market analysis tells me that most of my customers only buy 1 curry puff.
Now I want to increase my revenue so I decide to off a deal whereby for each curry puff you buy, you can buy a second one at 30% off.
What I hope this discount will do is to incentivise the people who bought 1 curry puff to now buy 2. My margin on the second curry puff is much lower, but I still earn $0.40 per curry puff. I realise that I lose margin from people who normally buy 2 curry puffs, but I figure that the revenue gained from the increase in sales of curry puff will outweigh the loss. Also, I have a secondary marketing objective. I hope that customers will share the second curry puff with a friend, thereby increasing exposure of my product.
In other words, I still make money from the sale of my curry puff.
Now let us for a moment, depart from planet Earth and go to planet MLM. I’m now going to offer a rebate of $1.50 per curry puff! For every curry puff a customer buys, I am going to return the customer $1.50! That’s great! People buy my curry puffs by the bucketful. They don’t even eat it. The product, after all, is not important. What they want is to be paid $0.50 for buying my curry puff. But of course, it’s easy to see that if I keep paying every customer $0.50 per curry puff, I’m going to run out of money real fast. So the solution is simple. I’m going to tell customers that they need 1 month to get their rebate. Now my customers are now telling people, “man this is great. I get $0.50 cents for buying this delicious curry puff.” My sales increase exponentially. As the cash flows in, I use the money to pay off the people whom I promised to pay $0.50 earlier. And since my sales is increasing so quickly, I start building a huge cash float. Business is great. Life is great.
So what happens when the speed at which I acquire new customers slows? Well, perhaps I can tell existing customers to buy more curry puffs. After all, you’re getting paid to do so. Why buy only 100 curry puffs? Buy 1000! The more you buy, the more you earn? That might work for a while.
But there will come a point where people can no longer buy your curry puffs. And you have millions of customers you have to pay off.
What I had here was a business that was designed to fail. There is nothing inherently wrong with a business failing. Businesses fail all the time. It’s another thing to have a business that’s designed to fail and is fundamentally unable to keep the promises that it makes.
The problem with most SE Merchants is that they are content as long as they are being paid monthly.
The very idea why we keep asking WHERE THE MONEY COMES FROM doesn't sink in.
In 2006, SE 'investors' were tempted in to join by promoting the Taiwan Wireless project.
SE-EMCOM got an Operator License, and blew it up such that they are going to wire up the whole of Taichung and then Taipei.
Merchants monthly rebate were supposed to come from profits generated from EMCOM business.
That of cos have been proven a fake. (the same could be said to be happening in Empire Venture. They purchased a small plot for the SOHO building, and then declared they are going to reclaim a huge piece of land from the sea to build a Global Village, a 2 19 storey service suites bldg, 1 hotel and a convention centre)
In 2007, Emall & Emcall came into play.
SE Merchants now is supposed to get their rebates from 10% of emall global sales turnover.
Now Mathematics, Internet traffic monitoring tools and Time has proven Emall to be unable to supply that kind of rebates.
The suspension of Emall the last few months and yet the continual payout of rebates to overseas merchants have proven that the source of rebate doesn't come from there.
The 4 year plan for Emcall supplied by SE does not come with a contract for the Merchants. Even if the Emcall rung true, then SE Merchants, especially our friend who owns 128 GPs = S$1.2 million dumped in, has acually purchased a more than $800,000 worth of callback system, that will expire in 4 years, whether he used them or not.
During the CAD freeze, a notice at the SE counter stated that SE is not obliged to refund anything back once the Merchant wants to close the account.
By the same reckoning, Should SE suddenly close down (the current recession is a good reason to declare closure) all monies will be gone.
The reason why we ask why the money for the rebates come from, because of the monthly payout is now based not on some structured figures that financial market forces can monitor.
They are based on an illegal pyramid scheme of using money from new members to pay the old.
They are based on the grace of SE, and whoever holds the SE reins.
PERIOD.
The other argument I don't get at all is:
Touch your heart and tell me the truth. When these signs during shopping pops up, would you NOT ask another friend of yours to see if the group of you would want to purchase it together, because it is mutually beneficial?
Yea?
Tsk tsk.. You're already practicing the basis of network marketing.. Spreading information and sharing. Now, now.. Isnt that network marketing? Shock.
Er... okay. Let's see. If I see a good offer and I ask my friend if he wants to take advantage of it, I have credibility because I'm not compensated. That's the whole point. If I tell you that you should get a Thinkpad T61 because it is a great laptop, you might trust me because you know I have nothing to gain from telling you that. However, if you knew I'm paid a sum of money each time I recommend a Thinkpad T61, wouldn't you have some doubts?
The MLMer will say, "I wouldn't sell out my friends! It's a great product and I would recommend it anyway. Why shouldn't the company compensate me a little for it?"
It's called conflict of interest. Look it up.
Originally posted by Phaze:The other argument I don't get at all is:
Er... okay. Let's see. If I see a good offer and I ask my friend if he wants to take advantage of it, I have credibility because I'm not compensated. That's the whole point. If I tell you that you should get a Thinkpad T61 because it is a great laptop, you might trust me because you know I have nothing to gain from telling you that. However, if you knew I'm paid a sum of money each time I recommend a Thinkpad T61, wouldn't you have some doubts?
The MLMer will say, "I wouldn't sell out my friends! It's a great product and I would recommend it anyway. Why shouldn't the company compensate me a little for it?"
It's called conflict of interest. Look it up.
I think its called greed-in-denial
"We are not bad people, we just didn't know."
"We suffered as well. I'm still paying off my debts."
"I knew there was something wrong, but I had a responsibility to my downlines."
;)
I want to expose them for the cheats that they are. Here's their so-called "compensation plan"
it's in adobe pdf format, can anyone give me some ideas as to how to post it for all to see?
Originally posted by Zwei51:I want to expose them for the cheats that they are. Here's their so-called "compensation plan"
it's in adobe pdf format, can anyone give me some ideas as to how to post it for all to see?
from your thread "expose" i do have some question.
my question is, if they are not able to substain singapore se, whereby singapore se is the HQ of se, how are they suppose to scam other country? by that time singapore has already crack them down and warn the authorities in other country regarding the "scam" company in sg. The devastating news will be featured all over newspaper, radio, online forum and so on.
in other words, there is little chances for those SE singapore leaders to go overseas and scam other ppl, the local people from other SE can do a better job since they are the local people from that country.
so i abit dubious regarding to your so called " overheard" ....
-"If" you are a se member, so did u purchase any gp or simply cannot make any sales?
-what makes you think se is a scam?(not from what you have seen in this thread, something more revealing)
-what question did u ask them that they are not able to answer you, since you trusted them before, and if you have any doubt you certainly will look for them first.
-you mentioned "shameful practices" so wat kind of practices do they carried out?
ppl like redstone, phaze and etc provides supporting evidence to their statement, so how about urs?
I used to be from their company. I know all their tricks. The SE people become from positive reinforcing to now outright lying. Thats why I cannot stand it anymore. There are a lot of people in SE all know in their heart that this is a scam but still call people down because they are suckered in already and have no choice but to believe. I know because I was there when Jackie Hoo and James Phang was discussing this thing and I overheard them saying that if Singapore cannot sustain, then just close office and move to another country. They can do it because their platform is online, so they have already deceived downlines in these other countries like malaysia, indonesia, china and hong kong.
I know because I witnessed their decadent lifestyles. All the money they paid themselves while their downlines are struggling, all the SE people who invest their hard earned money and their parents savings, do you know what I saw those SE leaders doing when they "sell" their epoints to new investors and take their cash? I saw them go KTV open bottle, go massage, go shopping, go call girls, go casino in macau!
You think it's difficult for them to go overseas and scam other people? They ARE already doing it, that's why they must be stopped ASAP before they can run!
If the lawyer Rasif can run with 12 mil, why do you think these SE leaders cannot run with the money they have already scammed?
I see them from the time they just do mlm until now, that's why I know. From NTI days until this sunshine thing, all the promises have never materialised.
WITHIN THESE FEW DAYS THEY ARE GOING TO RUN ALREADY. JUST WAIT AND SEE.
Didn't someone mention that James Phang surrendered his passport to CAD? Or did I read that incorrectly?
where? can you repost?
It would seemed that Sunshine Empire has made it to the Indonesia Blacklist as well.
I can't read Indonesian, so can't find the official website.
But here's the english article from asiaview.org:-
AsiaViews, Edition: 51/IV/Jan/2008
The dirty dozen investment businesses
A task force headed by Bapepam-LK issued a black list of 12 investment companies. Some of them protested but others were unconcerned and just continued working.
THE dream of becoming rich is always extremely viable. Find this difficult to believe? Just type "get-quick investment" into the Google search engine, and lots of websites offering ways of getting rich quickly and easily-sometimes without even having to work-will pop up.
In order to grab customers, lots of unrealistic promises are made, many of which are very far indeed from common sense. One website owner even stated that he was able to make Rp2 million each and every day without breaking any sweat. In a period of just one year he acknowledged he was able to amass some Rp1.6 billion. And in order to be more convincing, shots of pages from a bank book filled with transactions are shown.
Another website, megadana.com, promises a profit of 0.3 percent per day, or 9.2 per month, non-stop for all of one's life. Compare this with the interest on a deposit account that is only in the region of 6 percent per year. This offer is clearly tantalizing. In short, like they say on comedy shows, it's really exciting?
On a larger scale, there's Sunshine Empire Indonesia. This investment company is part of the Empire Group Alliance, which was set up by James Phang, a citizen of Singapore. It has offices in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea and Japan.
There are two ways of joining Sunshine, either through a partnership or as a merchant. Listen to what happened to Mochamad Masrur, 28, a merchant with Sunshine. One year ago, he deposited US$150 with Sunshine in order to become a bronze merchant in Surabaya, East Java.
In return, he received points for buying products sold by Emall, including electronic goods, healthcare products and vitamins. Profits are made from commissions on signing up new merchants. In less than half a year, he was able to earn enough to renovate his parents' home and buy a Toshiba portable computer. "But for the last three months I have not been active," he said. "There's a business that's even more profitable."
Another choice is through a partnership. The cheapest package is the bronze partnership, worth US$330 (Rp3.13 million), and the most expensive the gold partnership US$6,600 (Rp62.7 million). This is the same as capital participation in a Sunshine-affiliated company.
These participants' funds are invested in one of Sunshine's affiliates, such as Emcom Worldwide, Emcom Technology, Empire Venture Property and Emall Empire. Clients are promised fantastic profits: they will get their capital back in just eight months. And what's more, they then don't have to do anything while the money rolls in.
Seeing so very many offers being made by these "investment fund managers," the Capital Market & Financial Institutions Supervisory Board (Bapepam-LK) carried out an investigation secretly. The rather unsavory results of this were released by this government department at the end of December last year.
In a press release at the end of last year, Bapepam-LK stated that there were at least 12 illegal investment companies. Sunshine is at the top of the list. According to Bapepam-LK's Ahmad Fuad Rahmany, this list was the result of work carried out by a task force given the job of handling suspected illegal acts in investment management.
Wahyu Hidayat, who heads up the task force, stated that this list was prepared based on input from members of the general public, both through SMS as well as emails sent to the task force's website at http://waspada-investasi.bapepam.go.id.
The task force, which includes representatives from Bapepam-LK, Bank Indonesia, the Commodities Futures Trading Supervisory Body, the Financial Transactions Reporting & Analysis Center, the Department of Trade, and the National Police (Polri), was set up on June 20 last year.
The task force's job is to supervise and take action against false investment companies. "There being so many makes things complicated for us," said Wahyu on Thursday last week. These companies include PT Gamasmart Fund Karya Utama, PT Platinum Investment, PT Wealth Max Centric Solusindo and PT Kharisma Tiga Sarana.
It's fair to say that the setting-up of this task force was overdue. This is because there have already been many cases of investment fraud and trillions of rupiah of investors' funds have vanished after the collapse of investment companies.
At the beginning of 2007, for example, thousands of customers of Dressel Investment Limited, an investment company based in the British Virgin Islands, were unable to do anything when the company was closed down. Customers' funds amounting to around Rp3 trillion vanished. Before this, there were similar cases involving the customers of Inter Bank Bisnis Terencana (Ibist) and Probest.
Compared to Malaysia, Bapepam-LK is a long way behind. For several years now, the capital market authority of Malaysia has routinely published investor alerts that created a list of false investment companies.
The Securities Commission of Malaysia has even gone further. Since June last year, working together with the Communications and Multimedia Commission, this Malaysian capital market authority has closed down websites proved of selling false investment products such as www.abbfund.com and www.swedenfund.com.
One problem that up until now has often been the case in Indonesia is uncertainty over who is responsible for acting against those involved in these investments. "In the past there certainly often was confusion over responsibility," said Wahyu Hidayat.
It was because of this that the task force was set up with the role of deciding who will deal with which investment violations. If these involve the capital market, then Bapepam-LK will handle them. If banking practices are involved, then the central bank will be in charge, while if they are to do with the commodity exchange, then these will be handled by the Futures Exchange Supervisory Board (Bappebti). If, however, criminal acts are concerned, the police will be in charge.
So far, no measures have yet been taken against the 12 investment companies that have been blacklisted. According to Wahyu, the task force is carrying out further verification and it is targeted that this will be completed this month.
The announcement of this list of a dozen false investment companies immediately led to protests. One of these was from Anwar Eddy Hartono, the boss of PT Berkat Lestari. This partner of Mitra OilPods International that markets these investments in oil fields has not stopped wondering how this company could be placed on the Bapepam-LK black list.
According to Eddy, the company only provides investment information and as such is not an investment company. "Not one single cent of customers' money ends up in our bank account," he said. All funds belonging to customers are directly transferred to the owner of the well, the Powder River Basin Gas Corporation.
Riza Wibawa, the boss of Brankas Wealth Management, also made a similar comment. He stated that Brankas has never collected public funds. "We are only a financial consultant," he said.
The attitude of Sunshine Empire was far calmer. It seems as if this company just ignored the announcement by Bapepam-LK. This was despite the fact that in addition to being placed on Bapepam-LK's list of illegal investment companies, Sunshine was also listed on investor alerts from the Monetary Authority of Singapore and the Securities Commission of Malaysia.
The Singapore Department of Police Commercial Affairs, a special unit that handles white-collar crimes, is also currently investigating Sunshine. These three institutions are advising that the general public does not invest in Sunshine.
When Tempo visited Sunshine's office in the Kota Grogol Permai office complex, Jakarta, last week, several would-be investors still appeared to be listening attentively to the explanations given by Sunshine staff. "Our activities have not been disturbed," said Pandhu, one of Sunshine's marketing staff.
He did not seem to be that worried about the announcement made by Bapepam-LK. "Later, my boss will provide you with full clarification," he said. But unfortunately, up until last Friday, there was no news whatsoever from the boss of Sunshine Indonesia, Samuel Herman Furama.
What is clear is that the activities of this company are quite normal. Sunshine's marketing agenda continues as usual. On Monday last week, Sunshine's management made a presentation at its office in Surabaya. This will be followed by more presentations at the Bandung office on Wednesday and on Monday next week at the Novotel Hotel Yogyakarta. "It's not that we do not know about the warnings from Bapepam-LK or the Singapore capital market authority," said Masrur. "What is important is that investors are aware what the risks are."
Illegal investment companies
Hi anyone from AMWAY????
Originally posted by Zwei51:I want to expose them for the cheats that they are. Here's their so-called "compensation plan"
it's in adobe pdf format, can anyone give me some ideas as to how to post it for all to see?
you can upload them to yousendit.com or send them to me...i will help you with the rest ~
Dominoes Effect hit Malaysia Liao ~
http://www.thelocalking.com/singapore/miscellaneous--others.../sunshine-empire.html
Their paid out also dropped by 80%.
Anyone can check up with Emcom's Asset called Photar, how their stock doing in HK now??
Originally posted by kyoshirou77:Dominoes Effect hit Malaysia Liao ~
http://www.thelocalking.com/singapore/miscellaneous--others.../sunshine-empire.html
Their paid out also dropped by 80%.
Anyone can check up with Emcom's Asset called Photar, how their stock doing in HK now??
I don't really know how to read... :-)
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=HKG2:8220
Originally posted by Zwei51:I used to be from their company. I know all their tricks. The SE people become from positive reinforcing to now outright lying. Thats why I cannot stand it anymore. There are a lot of people in SE all know in their heart that this is a scam but still call people down because they are suckered in already and have no choice but to believe. I know because I was there when Jackie Hoo and James Phang was discussing this thing and I overheard them saying that if Singapore cannot sustain, then just close office and move to another country. They can do it because their platform is online, so they have already deceived downlines in these other countries like malaysia, indonesia, china and hong kong.
I know because I witnessed their decadent lifestyles. All the money they paid themselves while their downlines are struggling, all the SE people who invest their hard earned money and their parents savings, do you know what I saw those SE leaders doing when they "sell" their epoints to new investors and take their cash? I saw them go KTV open bottle, go massage, go shopping, go call girls, go casino in macau!
You think it's difficult for them to go overseas and scam other people? They ARE already doing it, that's why they must be stopped ASAP before they can run!
If the lawyer Rasif can run with 12 mil, why do you think these SE leaders cannot run with the money they have already scammed?
I see them from the time they just do mlm until now, that's why I know. From NTI days until this sunshine thing, all the promises have never materialised.
WITHIN THESE FEW DAYS THEY ARE GOING TO RUN ALREADY. JUST WAIT AND SEE.
When did you quit your job in se? It must be just recently since you said you "overheard" jackie woo and JP discussion, and furthermore, your position in SE must be quite high in that company, i don think average agent are able to be there when meeting was held.
Lawyer Rasif can run away so easily because he is just 1 person, what you are saying right now affected thousands of se manager, and most of them were singaporean, moreover, at least 30% were all youngster and still studying in singapore.
you mentioned lying, say leh wat they lied to ppl? and also how many gps do you personally have and sell, since you been wif them since NTI
erm, JP passport is confiscated and his 3 kids still in sg studying , how to run btw..
What is the date Emcom bought Photar har?
Not good in shares, but could tell you simple summary
Share price dropped by nearly 50 cents in the last 6 months, volume traded dropped from 11 million to 1 million
Volume traded means how much shares have exchange hands, the lower the figure, the less chances you are able to find buyers/sellers, not good in case of crisis
Net profits, operating margin goes down by 40%, ROTA goes down by 40% meaning they are not utilising their assets well
ROE drop 179%...the returns are not performing against the amount you have invested
basically it means when Emcom took over, there is a sharp drop in performance
as a gauge u can compare against other companies, like Nam Tai..Nam Tai is doing well and has a headcount of 3000 people...funnily, Emcom has 212
if nothing changed since the takeover, Photar wasnt a great electronic giants they make out to be, to buy over and make a hooha of...sheesh
Originally posted by kyoshirou77:Dominoes Effect hit Malaysia Liao ~
http://www.thelocalking.com/singapore/miscellaneous--others.../sunshine-empire.html
Their paid out also dropped by 80%.
Anyone can check up with Emcom's Asset called Photar, how their stock doing in HK now??
It's okay if the CRP is low. They still have their valuable e-points where they can buy tons of stuff off the emall.
e points somehow reminds me of banana money used in WW2
anyone wanna guess why?
Originally posted by laurence82:e points somehow reminds me of banana money used in WW2
anyone wanna guess why?
Inflation in E-points =D lots of e-points but no value, but then they still can use the epoints to purchase item from emall right? i saw they even have holiday packages on sales.
Originally posted by Phaze:It's okay if the CRP is low. They still have their valuable e-points where they can buy tons of stuff off the emall.
And what if I don't need all that stuff?
I tried going to the Emall site to see how much stuff costs there. I almost gave up. It loads so slowly.
Anyway I found the site a bit confusing. Is it like an auction site? I saw an 8GB iPod Touch for 510EP but when I clicked on it, the price was 390EP. Does 1EP=1USD?
The price from the US Apple Store is USD$299 for an 8GB iPod. SGD$498 from Singapore store which works out to about USD$351 at current exchange rates. But then again, if you get tons of epoints, it's probably still a good deal.