Accurate Fraud,
May I ask how old are you? From your thinking, it seems like you are still wet behind your ears! The way you grumble about life's not being fair, sounds so much like my son, and my daughter who everyday indulges in trying to put on Mummy's dresses and makeups.
We are not attacking you personally, but the thoughts within you, which I really cannot fathom how a rational person can even spew it out of his/her oral cavity.
I've gotten friends who are just O levels holder, who has made it through sheer hard work and are millionaires now, whilst I'm a professional not as rich as them. So do I cry foul here, do I whine about life's not being fair?
Like I said, I am only expressing my opinion.
My opinion has been formed based on people I have spoken to. They are not in the top level management of Sunshine Empire. They are ordinary distributors. These people have made profits from their investments in Sunshine, not massive, million dollar profits, but substantial profits in the five-figure range.
I have so far not heard any complaints from them about people who have lost their life savings etc.
And in any case, it is foolish to stake one's life savings on ANY investment, so it is the investor who has to bear the brunt of the blame - the same goes for stocks, bonds, REITs, mutual funds, endowment funds, real estate, setting up a business, or gambling. You should only invest what you can afford to lose, not your entire life savings. If a person cannot even understand such a simple concept, then he/she seriously needs to improve his/her financial awareness and financial management skills.
Originally posted by Accurate Fraud:Like I said, I am only expressing my opinion.
My opinion has been formed based on people I have spoken to. They are not in the top level management of Sunshine Empire. They are ordinary distributors. These people have made profits from their investments in Sunshine, not massive, million dollar profits, but substantial profits in the five-figure range.
I have so far not heard any complaints from them about people who have lost their life savings etc.
And in any case, it is foolish to stake one's life savings on ANY investment, so it is the investor who has to bear the brunt of the blame - the same goes for stocks, bonds, REITs, mutual funds, endowment funds, real estate, setting up a business, or gambling. You should only invest what you can afford to lose, not your entire life savings. If a person cannot even understand such a simple concept, then he/she seriously needs to improve his/her financial awareness and financial management skills.
Sadly money is the root of all evil, and greed can make people do stupid stuff, as you said, putting life savings into investments. At times even logic is thrown out of the window. In any case, one should not invest in something they're not sure of, and in a company with dubious business schemes (SE), and with a boss (Phang) who has a background of running scams.
Accurate Fraud,
May I ask how old are you? From your thinking, it seems like you are still wet behind your ears! The way you grumble about life's not being fair, sounds so much like my son, and my daughter who everyday indulges in trying to put on Mummy's dresses and makeups.
We are not attacking you personally, but the thoughts within you, which I really cannot fathom how a rational person can even spew it out of his/her oral cavity.
I've gotten friends who are just O levels holder, who has made it through sheer hard work and are millionaires now, whilst I'm a professional not as rich as them. So do I cry foul here, do I whine about life's not being fair?
I am 32 this year. Like I said I have worked as a lawyer, and I now have my own business with dealings in Dubai, London and Hong Kong. I am financially quite well off, thank you. I happen to be one of those fortunate "elites" who went to RI / RJC and received a tertiary education overseas.
I apologise if I come across as being "whiney". That is not my intention. I am not lamenting that life is not fair. My message is that life is not fair, and we have to accept it. MLM may not be fair, but it is a fact that nothing in life is inherently fair, including, but not limited to, MLM. That was what I was trying to convey. Maybe I did not express it well enough.
I now live in the UK, where there are social security nets for the poor and/or unemployed. Here, the Government takes care of people by providing free healthcare, no matter how severe your condition is. If you are unemployed and have dependants, you can claim up to GBP 400 (SGD 1,200) per week from the state. In addition, there is a minimum wage law, ensuring that even the most menial workers are remunerated fairly and are not exploited. The current rate is set at GBP 5.35 per hour (approximately SGD 16). In Singapore, there are no such provisions, and that is why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I just think that MLM can potentially serve as a "great equaliser", that's all.
Yes we heard your point. The point is, MLM can be trusted, but what we're trying to put to you is that SE/James Phang is someone who cannot be trusted. Extremely high risk, too high for me.
Originally posted by redstone:Yes we heard your point. The point is, MLM can be trusted, but what we're trying to put to you is that SE/James Phang is someone who cannot be trusted. Extremely high risk, too high for me.
x2..
hence the thread title..
maybe i was kinda fucked up and mixed up MLM with SE.. still.. too many bad eggs..
From what I have personally heard, James Phang himself was not from a privileged background, but he worked very hard and became successful in life through MLM. I have not met him, but I have met many people who hold him in very high regard. They sincerely feel that James has made a difference to their lives. Until I am presented with substantial and irrefutable evidence that proves otherwise, I have no reason to doubt what they are saying.
I think Singapore needs more "rags to riches" cases like James Phang, to prove that it is not necessary to get a PSC scholarship and attend Harvard or Oxford in order to succeed in life.
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showpost.php?p=26536021&postcount=984
Magic Kingdom failed project
If you think about it, due to the social hierarchy and institutions that are in place in present-day Singapore, virtually the only way for a "working class" citizen to break free of the perpetual cycle of poverty and debt is to set up their own business. No form of employment will realistically enable them to do, because of the glass ceilings that exist. These glass ceilings can be attributed to the culture of paper qualifications that prevails in Singapore.
On the topic of setting up a business and being your own boss, I think we have to accept that not everyone can do that. To set up a business, one needs financial capital. He also needs knowledge capital (i.e. technical expertise, product knowledge or market knowledge). In addition he also needs social capital i.e. he has to know the right people, for example he has to know trustworthy suppliers who will give him a good price etc. Most people, when first starting out, will have neither of these things.
As such, being a self-employed "businessman" using the MLM framework is definitely a good stepping stone - it helps a person to make contacts, to learn basic concepts about sales, marketing, product knowledge and people management, and to raise money. It is a good learning ground for those who are interested in moving into traditional business in future.
This is why I think MLM has the potential to help the underprivileged working-class climb the social ladder in Singapore.
Everyone has had failed projects. Just because he failed before doesn't mean he is a conman or a fraud, nor does it imply that he is deliberately trying to cheat people.
Besides, all these opinions posted on forums are just based on hearsay. If he has indeed been guilty of perpetrating scams in the past, why hasn't he been arrested or convicted yet?
People cite the ongoing CAD investigations, but so far, they are only investigations.. many organisations have been investigated in the past and yet they are still operating today. Until concrete evidence has been found, I don't think we should be making any unfair or presumptive conclusions about James Phang.
thats...nice
anyway, anyone else got news on SE?
wanna know if the people successfully got their refunds or not
yup, some have gotten back a sum already, with more to come.
hope they get their refunds soon
Hi Accurate Fraud,
Yes, agree. MLM allow the unprivilege to attain success
BUT Sunshine empire was NEVER an MLM. If you are/once was a lawyer, u should know where to check that better.
You sure we need more of James Phang around? James Phang make his mark through pyramid scheme which has always been illegal in the eyes of the law. He has NEVER been in a MLM company. This is factual. EVERY company he set up subsequently since year 1999 are all disguised MLM companies with pyramid scheme intentions using the binary system. SO.. in saying that we need more Phangs around, are you advocating success achievements via illegal means is the way to go in Singapore? Your arguement on Singapore economy being a pyramid structure bla bla is comparing orange to pork.. the illegal pyramid system is when transfer of wealth/cash has no goods/services provided in it, meaning its pure money gaming. which legitimate company in Singapore has that?
95% of the people who benefited from Sunshine empire and all those companies that Phang sets up make it rich because they joined the company EARLY. Those that comes in 12 months later ALL make losses. Those that make it are at the GREAT expense of others. Now using the brains of a RI/RJC boy - what is the profile of this group of people that will join the company? Do they even deserve to make it rich knowing that its at the expense of others? Would you call this a legitimate form of business/investment plan that can help the poor and gap up the income bridge of Singaporeans? All these are FACTUAL. Everyone here can give you a proof on this.
Every company has failed projects - but they DO NOT have FANTASY ONES that dont exist but widely publicised in the first place. This again is FACTUAL.
Many company got investigated and still in business. ALL James Phang's set up attracts the CAD. And all change name/objectives after investigations. This again is also FACTUAL.
Singapore government investigate SE. Malaysian police raided, suspended and investigating SE for money laundering. Indonesian police investigated and put SE on the black listed of companies in the country. Taiwan and Malaysia officials deny any projects that Phang said SE is involved in the respective country... so...... my dear lawyer, in your area of study, tell me.. where did all these accusation, suspicions derive itself from?
Sorry but i really doubt you were a lawyer. Your patterns of tots are too frail to be one. I am a private equity manager for an offshore bank. I deal with lawyers all the time in my area of work. Unlike you stating unfactual opinions or views of Phang and asking us to appreciate him, i am here to give you FACTS on why we shouldnt.
And yes, its personal cos your statements on Phang are as irresponsible as the companies he set up. Its glad to know that you are living in a foreign land, we have enough of gullible people in Singapore already.
Yeah, me too doubt that he is indeed a lawyer....the only thing lawyer-ish about him, is how he can contort words to suit his frail train of thoughts...
He is also dangerous, if he claims what he is... a wayward thinking lawyer + a businessman = potentially accurate fraud.....then again, what is an accurate fraud, doesn't sound grammatically correct....
It's hilarious how some people still believe in Phang and some are even trying to justify his actions.
After almost 4 mths of questioning on forums, it was finally revealed that SE gets its earnings from "CRPs" sold. Of which part of the income is put into projects, if they really exist is another issue. In order to disguise it, Emcall/Emall, etc are offered as "rebates".
I must say SE people are very clever in twisting and playing with words.
I am not a lawyer... nor am I a private equity manager... I don't have a degree... I don't even have 'O' levels...
I can, however, do basic secondary school math and SE just don't add up.
But I do admit my math-fu is not that good. So if someone could help explain how SE's math is supposed to work, I'd be much obliged.
I'm not quite sure what kinds of returns were promised so perhaps someone could remind us how much a GP is supposed to generate?
Let's take an example project that costs 150 million to fund and requires 2 years to start generating revenue.
1. How many GPs need to be sold in order to have sufficient captial to fund the project (taking into account the monthly payouts as well).
2. How much profit must the project generate to pay off all the investors?
Originally posted by Accurate Fraud:Like I said, I am only expressing my opinion.
My opinion has been formed based on people I have spoken to. They are not in the top level management of Sunshine Empire. They are ordinary distributors. These people have made profits from their investments in Sunshine, not massive, million dollar profits, but substantial profits in the five-figure range.
I have so far not heard any complaints from them about people who have lost their life savings etc.
And in any case, it is foolish to stake one's life savings on ANY investment, so it is the investor who has to bear the brunt of the blame - the same goes for stocks, bonds, REITs, mutual funds, endowment funds, real estate, setting up a business, or gambling. You should only invest what you can afford to lose, not your entire life savings. If a person cannot even understand such a simple concept, then he/she seriously needs to improve his/her financial awareness and financial management skills.
You sound like a moron in the above post. I dont need to meet you or even hear from you in real to know that you are NO WAY a lawyer.
Who will ever tell you that they make their riches out of other's misery?
IF those friends of yours are the only people that you hear from about Phang and SE, then your net work of news about SE and Phang is smaller than your toilet bowl to know what's facts from fiction. Either that OR you are simply a Phang supporter up here trying to save his stinky reputation.
Financial Management /awareness skills are meant to consider legitimate investments. Please for goodness sake, dont even correlate it with Phang and SE in anyway. People who joined SE and Phang obviously lack those skills, that's why they are there!
You are confusing Gambling and Investing when you compare SE, Phang to everything else in the real world. Phang's legion of crap companies have zero creditablity, stinky track records, fantasy projects, CAD prone, highest default rate since 1999 etc.. if you can call those investments, then you must be a really bad gamble by your parents.
Better start re-structuring your strategy if you really intend to do your bit to save Phang's reputation my dear RI/RJC boy - you have written so much craps in your earlier post that it will really insult my intelligence to correct you. Your comparison of life, country's structural systems, etc.. are all terribly out of point.
I really hope RI/RJC stands for Raffles and not Rubbish.
sunshine empire got no hope already la. Always hear so many problems everytime i come to this forum and kaypoh. Those that are involved better plan for an exit and get refund. Probably an empty shell company with worms to be uncovered. This company got any financial report? Profit and loss statement and balance sheet? Im so curious about its performance that is if it has any. MLM models are unsustainable. Look at the default rate of payout. I remember hearing something like put in 12k get back two payments of 700? This is definitely not an investment. Thats why MAS put them on alert list. It is sad that innocent and naive people may get implemented and those sunshine agent got no heart for them but only care abt getting people to join.
Theres a lawyer and a private equity fund manager here? I will rather listen to the views of fund managers with experience in investment scheme and finanacial management and with wider eyes. After all this company so many problem any wise investor will flee far far away already. lol. People inside are those that pay the company to become salesmen. So stay away from troubled company.
hi,
i had to say that i am a "customer" of SE first. My upline has offer me 2 options
1) to change over to Emmax
2) to ask for a refund frm the coy. But he remind me that SE is a private entity meaning that they gt limited captial of 2 million nia.. Haiz so it mean my refund might not be even successful
To choose option 1 mean i need to go down to TPY and sign a form and present a photostat of my IC which i feel very unsafe cos the Coy is now based in HK and i was told that it is not even a concrete coy but some flooding coy that operate via the Net.
If you are in my shoes, what will you all do??
Charm,
How much did you invest?
Well, I think you should report to CAD about what's going on in there. You don't even know if Emmax is going to be successful or not, and if they are not, then it is even harder to recover your money. Your risk, is in fact, greater than asking for a refund.
I thought JP had already gone on national newspaper to deny SE's links with Emmax, that he is not aware of any scheme to transfer membership to Emmax?
Surely, such inconsistency in policy within SE, should have raised an alarm bell as big as Big Ben in their investors...unless these investors are completely clueless and ignorant right from the beginning.
Originally posted by Charm_83:hi,
i had to say that i am a "customer" of SE first. My upline has offer me 2 options
1) to change over to Emmax
2) to ask for a refund frm the coy. But he remind me that SE is a private entity meaning that they gt limited captial of 2 million nia.. Haiz so it mean my refund might not be even successful
To choose option 1 mean i need to go down to TPY and sign a form and present a photostat of my IC which i feel very unsafe cos the Coy is now based in HK and i was told that it is not even a concrete coy but some flooding coy that operate via the Net.
If you are in my shoes, what will you all do??
I never trust and never will trust any company affliated in any way to Phang or any of his "associates".
Emmax is based in HK. It's already so hard to get money back from them in Sg, what about HK? I can guarantee u this, Emmax will be investigated by HK police soon. Refund, is it a full refund?
What did your uplines tell u, why is SE shutting down?
Originally posted by Charm_83:hi,
i had to say that i am a "customer" of SE first. My upline has offer me 2 options
1) to change over to Emmax
2) to ask for a refund frm the coy. But he remind me that SE is a private entity meaning that they gt limited captial of 2 million nia.. Haiz so it mean my refund might not be even successful
To choose option 1 mean i need to go down to TPY and sign a form and present a photostat of my IC which i feel very unsafe cos the Coy is now based in HK and i was told that it is not even a concrete coy but some flooding coy that operate via the Net.
If you are in my shoes, what will you all do??
Get help and cooperate with CAD and see wat are the available options. Rather then hearing the options given by the sunshine agents. These agents sure to provide options that are probably disadvantageous to you and prevent you from refunding. Once money is in, they will make it hard for u to get back. And probably use hard sell tactics to reason with u and bla bla bla. Feel unsafe get help from CAD, and dun expect help from sunshine agent themselves. I wonder if CASE will help im not too sure. If there are better options maybe some experts can help with opinions.