Sunshine Empire
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What kind of crap is this?
So you rather believe what someone who has a spectacular track record of companies which caused thousands of people to loose thousands (China Dream, Magic Kingdom, Emcom Taichung) than the newspapers?
Okay, so I use your logic. "Govt wanna stop SE blah blah blah".. Compaines like Citicorp, Aberdeen, etc are multimillion, multibillion dollar companies which transmit millions all around the world daily, and have a huge business operation in Sg. Why didn't, using your view, did govt force them to close down?
Do you know what kind of crap you're saying?
Okay, in a local persepctive. CDL, Capitaland are some of the biggest developers in SEA, and they're having lots of (real) property projects in China. Why didn't "govt close them down" just like you claimed?
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Originally posted by GreenTeaLeaf:
From a moral standpoint, I believe both parties have the right to stick to their beliefs. JP believes that what he is doing is for the greater good, and that he has done nothing wrong. From his perspective, he did help a lot of people to make money, whatever means, so he should be on the moral high ground.
Don't you know that few years ago many people lost millions all thanks to him and his "Magic Kingdom resort"? And what about Emcom Taichung wireless project? And people had never received any payments, even before "CAD froze accounts"?
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Originally posted by GreenTeaLeaf:
Hi guys, I don’t think I have actually tried to represent SE as a legitimate company. The argument I am placing is not about whether they are legal or not. Read a bit into history, and you shall find that since there was civilization, there was war. Both parties take their claim to the throne, and the survivor tells the tale THE WAY HE WANTS IT TO BE TOLD. You are illegal if the authorities SAY SO.
From a moral standpoint, I believe both parties have the right to stick to their beliefs. JP believes that what he is doing is for the greater good, and that he has done nothing wrong. From his perspective, he did help a lot of people to make money, whatever means, so he should be on the moral high ground.
From the government’s perspective, they are trying to safeguard national interests, and prevent too much funds from flowing out of the country, affecting the local economy. For banks, apart from guarding their self interests, you can say they have to guard customer interests too, and it would be dangerous for the remaining customers of the bank should reserves be depleted rapidly (cutting short the rolling capital for investments).
In fact, I believe there exists in this forum people from other MLM companies trying to poach as well. No qualms about that, Singapore is indeed too small to not be tempted into cutthroat competition scenarios.
I’m not taking sides here. I may be travelling around now, but I still love Singapore for a place with unrivalled good food and many of my best friends. I may not be in SE, but I still maintain my friendship with those I knew back in NTI. What I am proposing, perhaps, is simply to take a rational viewpoint, so as to see the bigger picture.
Oh man… I really really don’t know where to start but here goes.
Okay. Let's take the rational viewpoint and try to see the bigger picture.
First of all, you are mistaken if you think there are many cheerleaders for the government here. But let's not take sides and not unduly accuse the government for imaginary actions.
The problem here is that you take a bit of truth, and you spin out and Phangify it with all sorts of conspiracy theories.
It is true that the government tries to protect 'national' interests and prevent too much funds from going out. That's why we have currency controls for example. But how does attacking Sunshine Empire prevent funds from going out?
Think.
You said Sunshine Empire "…channels money from the masses to a common pool, of which a percentage is drawn to rebate people monthly, and the rest invested into low-risk, high-return businesses, of which a portion of the profits are drawn back to further rebate these “investors”. For those who solely invest their cash, if all goes well, they would get back the maximum rebate amount in a short time. For those who wish to market this plan, it works well too, as long as there is proof of rebate and a proper commission scheme."
Let’s start with “low-risk, high-return”. There is no such thing. Seriously. Everytime people think there’s such a thing as low-risk, high return, they are proven wrong over and over again. Look at the sub-prime mess. AAA rated bonds were supposed to be low risk, low return. People tried turning it into low risk high return by using leverage. In the end, it turned out to be a high risk disaster.
Next is “a portion of the profits are drawn back to further rebate these ‘investors’.” Where are those profits? There are no profits which is why this looks a lot like a pyramid scheme. Money taken from new ‘investors’ is used to pay the old ‘investors’. This cannot continue indefinitely because the pool of ‘investors’ will run out and a vast majority of people will lose their money. If you don’t understand why, go google for “pyramid scheme” or “ponzi scheme” to get a better understanding of why pyramid schemes don’t work and are harmful.
You said, “JP came up with this brilliant idea of take money from the public, using an MLM model of run a money game that rebates substantially and yet gives him the capital to start / buyout profitable business entities. Logically everyone gains, so the plan explodes. Housewives and students suddenly draw 5 to 6 figure income streams, and everyone is happy.”
Again the problem here is that the 5 to 6 figure income stream does not come from profitable business entities, but from new ‘investors’. That 5 to 6 figure income stream is not real. It’s a scam to fool new ‘investors’ into thinking the scheme works so that those at the top can collect money until the scheme collapses. And your use of the word “brilliant” in the same sentence as “JP” in a non-sarcastic manner really offends me unless you mean “brilliant scam”.
Think.
You said “Banks take your money to do the same. Rebates are in cash or kind, and often a very low percentage of the invested amount. Below the surface these institutions simply take the fruit of your labour and regulate your consumption by giving you “money”, so that you don’t consume so much to the extent they have nothing to consume.”
Banks take the fruit of your labour and regulate consumption by giving you “money”? Er… umm… huh? Who said you have to give your money to a bank? And putting money in a bank is not the same as investing in a bank. Putting money in Citibank for example is not the same as investing in the Citibank group.
I think you completely misunderstand what a bank is. Let’s talk about a bank with a consumer arm like DBS, UOB or OCBC. When you put money in a bank, you are effectively making a no-risk loan to the bank. The bank guarantees your capital and pays you a small amount of interest for the use of your capital. So if one bank wanted to obtain more capital, it may offer a high interest rate to attract more people to ‘loan’ their money to the bank.
The bank then pools this money and makes higher risk loans to borrowers. To adjust for this risk, the bank charges higher interest rates to the borrowers. This is one area where the bank derives its profits from. The bank does a best guess on the credit worthiness of the borrower and charges an appropriate risk adjusted interest rate. If the borrower is low risk, the interest rate will be low. If the borrower is high risk, the interest rate will be high.
Investment banks do pretty much the same thing. They pool money and invest in higher risk opportunities in order to get higher returns. Usually, investing in a company is more risky than just making a loan. If you make a loan, your return is limited only to the interest rate you charge. If you invest in a company, your potential upside is much higher. However, your downside risk is much higher as well.
So there’s nothing forcing you to put money in the bank. Banks pay you little interest because you take on very little risk when you put money in a bank. If you want higher returns, you are free to directly invest in other opportunities. For example, if you think the bank is so terrible and unfair that they pay low interest to depositors and earn huge money, perhaps you should invest in that bank so you can benefit from those obscene profits.
This is fundamentally all about the cost of capital. But enough about economics for now. Next we will cover the “govt scared so much money go out of country” nonsense.
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Before we look at the conspiracy theory about the government being concerned about the outflow of capital, let’s first address a minor point.
You said “…and giving people a chance to report a less transparent income statement.”
Something tells me that as a businessman, you are not totally honest when declaring your income on your tax returns. ;)
I don’t see how participating in SE would result in a less transparent income statement. I might understand if transactions are in cash. Cash is, after all, difficult to track. However, SE pays people right? Furthermore, SE Singapore is a registered Singapore company. Have you ever heard of audits? The government would be able to find out who SE made payments to, the amounts, etc. If people don’t report their SE income, they will get caught eventually. This is no different from anyone else cheating on their taxes.
Now back to the main point.
“What SE is doing is directly drawing resources of out the authorities’ resource pool, and making money elsewhere…”
And why is that a problem? The government encourages overseas investment. The government has programs to help companies invest overseas. The government itself makes overseas investments. Some are good, some are not so good. Heard of Shenzhen?
“From the viewpoint of national income, with this plan rolling money around and out to investments in foreign land, with no particular channel of gain for the government, this is not a good business. Large incomes are drawn, and little taxes are paid, plus the outflow of funds to aid the development of foreign infrastructures.
To banks, imagine have millions of dollars withdrawn per month. I think this is quite direct.”
Direct perhaps on Planet GreenTeaLeaf, but not on planet Earth.
Think.
If Sunshine Empire could actually succeed and generate incredible returns, the government would love for you to invest in it. Heck, the government might let you put your CPF funds into it. The GIC might even invest in it themselves!
As someone else mentioned, capital flows in and out of Singapore all the time. It doesn’t matter as long as the capital comes back. And the capital will come back right? Because for every dollar someone puts into Sunshine Empire he will get back $3? $5? How could the government not love that? Even if they didn’t tax a single cent, this means a huge amount of money would be coming into Singapore. Think about it. Foreign projects earning tons of profits going back to the investors in Singapore. Our GDP goes up. Those rich people spend more and generate more economic activity. You may get a trickle down effect. What’s there not to like?
Let’s take the imaginary Taiwan WIMAX project for example. Let’s pretend the fantasy is true and the Taiwan WIMAX project could really be wildly successful. Maybe the Taiwanese go crazy over WIMAX and the whole country subscribes to the service. Part of the money that those Taiwanese subscribers are paying goes back to the Singaporean SE investors. You are bringing in foreign currency. Isn’t that ideal? What else can you say? Whoohooo!
But if James Phang is a scam artist who is using Sunshine Empire as a front for a pyramid scheme and runs off with the money, THAT is a problem. Because then Singaporeans will really lose their money and it will be a social tragedy. Old folks will lose their life savings. Young people who will have to work an untold number of years to pay off their debts.
So there’s no conspiracy here. If Sunshine Empire was a legitimate company, there is absolutely no incentive for the government to jeopardize the company in any way. In fact, the government would do its best to encourage it.
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GreenLeaf... you are really green ... you should call yourself a green horn.... i really doubt u are a business owner....you sound more like a business failure.
You have zero understanding of national investment policies, economics and worse still common sense.'Government afraid of funds flowing out of Singapore bla bla bla' - the ONLY THING that the GOvernment IS AFRAID is that the blood from your feet doesnt flow to to your brain and u will use up more of your medi save when you end up in the retard center......so much more that the government cant invest it overseas.
Let me give you an education: Reason why SIBOR rate is so low is cos there's TOO MUCH money in our system meaning interest rate in Singapore can only go lower if TOO MUCH funds is kept withine the country. Keeping too much money in the country WONT HELP IN ANYTHING. You will only push up our currency which wont work well for Singapore as we are 70% an exporting nation. - Even if SE can raise 1 billion out of Singaporean - its nothing.
Another piece of information for you: Government invested US$10billion into UBS in January, US$4.1Billion into Merril Lynch in January and US$4.4Billion into Citigroup in February. And ALL these are our CPF money. So.......... wat did u say the government is afraid of again?
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MLM..?
..the 'in' thing now is chinese nationals quickly flooding our shores leh.. singapore still got ppl joining mlm one meh.. we all know its a hoax la, why bother to still trying to defend urselves..?
u go out to the streets now, u tell ppl MLM, they run further den u tell them u MSK lo..
do us a favor la mlm bloodsuckers.. suck the blood DRY from the china ppl that come singapore can? den they no money, den they lan lan go back to china.. then we can really say "two wrongs make one right"..
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Hi everyone,
I think you guys have made very good points so far highlighting the problems with MLM and Sunshine Empire. However, every coin has two sides. A balanced conclusion cannot be reached before thorough consideration is given to the positive social effects of Sunshine's business model. I am not a MLM distributor myself, nor have I ever been one. However I personally know others who have benefitted immensely from Sunshine Empire, and therefore I think it is necessary to present the other side of the story so as to give this discussion a bit more balance.
It is no secret that Singapore society is highly stratified according to class and educational level. The Government calls this "meritocracy" but in truth this is elitism. The already huge income gap is expanding by the day. While fat-cat corporate bosses, professionals and Government ministers take home millions of dollars a year, the ordinary working-class citizens of Singapore are really struggling to make ends meet. And what about the section of Singaporeans who live under the poverty line? It may not be a well known fact amongst netizens, but the truth is that 20% of Singaporeans take home less than $800 a month! With little education and almost no state support, it is almost impossible for these people to aspire to climb the social ladder.
James Phang has done Singapore a great service by offering the underprivileged class of Singaporeans a real opportunity to improve their social conditions within a short period of time.
Sunshine Empire does not discriminate according to educational level, age, gender or race. It does not care whether you are an Old Boy of RI or ACS, it turns a blind eye to who your parents are, and it is indifferent to your NS service records - you start on the same footing whether you were a Lance Corporal or a Captain. It also does not require any expert knowledge or skill. The only thing that is required is diligence and a desire to improve yourself. With these qualities alone, even the most ignorant and ordinary of citizens can make a fortune, simply by duplicating the fool-proof system that James Phang has created.
Sure, in MLM, some people are bound to get burned. But if even 10% of the distributors can achieve significant improvements in their income level and their quality of life, do you not think that society as a whole stands to benefit?
I think MLM is something that elicits very visceral and emotive reactions in people because at some point of other, most people would have lost money in an MLM investment (think: Astral Mag). However, this should not preclude a balanced and objective appraisal of the industry as a whole. I think if we examine the facts, we will find that MLM has both good and bad points, and depending on what "class" background you hail from, the good may very well outweigh the bad.
James Phang is a modern-day Robin Hood, and he is plugging the huge gaps in society by helping the poor to catch up with the rich. This should have been the job of the Government, but they are too well cushioned in their ivory towers to actually know what life is like on the ground. Blame this on their sycophantic civil servants and their "wayang" mentality, and their need to always report only positive news to their political bosses!
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Originally posted by Accurate Fraud:
Sure, in MLM, some people are bound to get burned. But if even 10% of the distributors can achieve significant improvements in their income level and their quality of life, do you not think that society as a whole stands to benefit?
NO
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I did say MLM has the tendency to elicit visceral and emotive reactions in people, but even with that in mind, your response seems to be a bit overboard!
Do you not have anything intelligible to say in response?
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what you want me to say..? welcome to sgf? "some ppl bound to get burnt?" and a small number of ppl gets significance improvements in their lives and u make it sound so right? what happens to the ppl who dumped in all their hard-earned money? too bad?
'I'm sorry you lost ur 12k funeral fees old mdm Tan, but don't be so upset, young Mr Ng here has just benefitted from our MLM and James Phang's fool proof technique and is driving a BMW now..! cheer up ok?"
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Are any of the scenarios below any more fair or equitable?
1) John Tan is hardworking and smart and is a rising star in DBS/SIA/SingTel. However, he keeps getting passed over for that coveted Vice President post, because the Government keeps meddling, and installing former SAF Generals, civil servants, or retired PAP MPs into senior management positions?
John is much more experienced in his job and has proven himself to be very popular with his subordinates, and all of a sudden, he has to report to BG (NS) Tim Buck Too whose last job was Senior Deputy Assistant Vice-Secretary of the Anti-Confusion Proliferation Directorate, and has totally no experience in the private sector?
2) Bob and Roger both graduate with First Class Honours from NUS, but Bob lands a lucrative job at Citibank with $5,000 starting pay because his dad is golfing buddies with the Head of HR. Roger, whose dad is a taxi driver, has to start off at a small local accounting firm in Peninsula Plaza, earning $2,200 a month.
3) Jason Chen has worked for a foreign MNC for 12 years. However, he has been passed over for promotion on 4 occasions because senior management roles at his company only go to Foreign Talents. No Singaporean has ever held a senior management role.4) Gopal is a construction foreman who works very hard. After 15 years with his company, he earns $3,500 a month, and just about manages to keep up with the downpayments for his Toyota Corolla and his 4-room flat. He is putting aside $500 a month for his kids' education. One day, Gopal has been informed that he is "redundant", and that his job has gone to a Chinese foreman who is willing to work for $2,000 a month. He goes and sees his MP, but his MP simply tells him not to be complacent, accept a lower paying job, and that FTs are good for Singapore.
Life is not fair. Sunshine and MLM are merely providing one additional channel to address the inequality and elitism that exists in society.
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AccurateFraud,
It is not how much money one makes, it is about how money is made, which is my point of contention. You have friends who benefitted from SE, but do you know that for every benefactor, how many down the pyramids suffer from it?
In such a pyramid sort of scheme, the bottom gets sucked dry by the top. There is indeed stratification, how can you say that it is not? There's 'elitism' in SE too you know, since there are people on top and people below. The fact that JP is viewed almost god-like, isn't he an elite within the company?
And you call sitting on top of the pyramid and conning people to join, a deligent way to make money? Don't make me laugh will ya?
SE preys on the mentality of the so called underprivileged of our society. They take advantage of the ignorant, they feast on their desire to get out of their poverty cycle fast. And when these people finally realised one day that all this is a scam, you cannot imagine how deep and dark is the abyss that they are being plunged into by JP and his gang of elite generals...
Friend, Robin Hood or no Robin Hood, the act of robbery is simply wrong.
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Elitism exists everywhere so please don't try to preach your communistic thoughts here, you are dangerous....
Please don not harbour any illusion that life is fair, it is never fair. You sound like a disgruntled member of this society, who has everything going against you, and that such schemes, regardless of its ethics, is your way out. You sound unscrupulous to me....you just want to get to the apex ofr the society, regardless of the means.
People like you, deserves to stay in the lower strata and be ruled, before your foul thoughts gets proliferated throughout the society.
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Originally posted by Accurate Fraud:
Are any of the scenarios below any more fair or equitable?
1) John Tan is hardworking and smart and is a rising star in DBS/SIA/SingTel. However, he keeps getting passed over for that coveted Vice President post, because the Government keeps meddling, and installing former SAF Generals, civil servants, or retired PAP MPs into senior management positions?
John is much more experienced in his job and has proven himself to be very popular with his subordinates, and all of a sudden, he has to report to BG (NS) Tim Buck Too whose last job was Senior Deputy Assistant Vice-Secretary of the Anti-Confusion Proliferation Directorate, and has totally no experience in the private sector?
2) Bob and Roger both graduate with First Class Honours from NUS, but Bob lands a lucrative job at Citibank with $5,000 starting pay because his dad is golfing buddies with the Head of HR. Roger, whose dad is a taxi driver, has to start off at a small local accounting firm in Peninsula Plaza, earning $2,200 a month.
3) Jason Chen has worked for a foreign MNC for 12 years. However, he has been passed over for promotion on 4 occasions because senior management roles at his company only go to Foreign Talents. No Singaporean has ever held a senior management role.4) Gopal is a construction foreman who works very hard. After 15 years with his company, he earns $3,500 a month, and just about manages to keep up with the downpayments for his Toyota Corolla and his 4-room flat. He is putting aside $500 a month for his kids' education. One day, Gopal has been informed that he is "redundant", and that his job has gone to a Chinese foreman who is willing to work for $2,000 a month. He goes and sees his MP, but his MP simply tells him not to be complacent, accept a lower paying job, and that FTs are good for Singapore.
Life is not fair. Sunshine and MLM are merely providing one additional channel to address the inequality and elitism that exists in society.
they are not fair.. but in the cases u listed, were they requested to take out money THAT ALREADY BELONGS to them?
in contrast, what are your organisations asking them to do?
of coz i know life is not fair.. why? becoz as you have said, our govt is robbing ppl of their jobs, our govt is squeezing them every last drop of their blood.. but guess what? does THAT makes it ok for ur MLM organisations to do the same to the people too?
in fact, u guys are WORSE than the govt! the govt suck our money before it gets to us, and at least we know how much we are left with.. and pathetic as it is, we get on with our lives..
And what do you people do? u fabricate lies, give false hopes, give EXTREMELY rare cases, like what you said, 10%, as examples, and u TAKE FROM THEIR WHAT IS ALREADY THEIRS, which is worse than what the govt is doing(TAKING WHAT WAS RIGHTFULLY THEIRS).
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I am not denying that the structure of many MLM companies resemble a pyramid scheme. This is a fact which I accept.
However, what people fail to consider is that everything is a pyramid scheme, from corporations to Governments!
Is it not true that in a large corporation, the people at the bottom of the pyramid (ordinary workers) have to work very hard and put in alot of effort, for minimal reward? Who enjoys the fruit of their labour? It is the people at the top! Hence, the people at the bottom are slowly grinding their lives away to enrich the people at the top. This is the very definition of a pyramid scheme.
Governments operate the same way. Ordinary Singaporeans work an average of 55 hours a week. Some lower-income Singaporeans have to work overtime or even work two jobs just to make ends meet. I have heard of people who work as many as 19 hours a day, 7 days a week, just to support themselves. At the same time, they are made to pay income tax, GST, road tax, ERP, conservancy fees, utilities bills etc. Even when you die, your descendants have to pay inheritance tax! At the same time, the people at the top of the pyramid (Government ministers) lavish themselves with million dollar salaries for not doing much at all! We have an SM, a MM, two DPMs, Ministers without Portfolio, and worst of all the President of Singapore who get paid up to $3.5 million a year, using taxpayers' money. To do precisely what, may I ask? They enjoy large mansions, 24 hour security, huge cars, and have entire ministries of civil servants to do their bidding. This is all paid for by the people at the bottom of the pyramid!
Think about it, it's true!
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Originally posted by Accurate Fraud:
James Phang has done Singapore a great service by offering the underprivileged class of Singaporeans a real opportunity to improve their social conditions within a short period of time.
Sunshine Empire does not discriminate according to educational level, age, gender or race. It does not care whether you are an Old Boy of RI or ACS, it turns a blind eye to who your parents are, and it is indifferent to your NS service records - you start on the same footing whether you were a Lance Corporal or a Captain. It also does not require any expert knowledge or skill. The only thing that is required is diligence and a desire to improve yourself. With these qualities alone, even the most ignorant and ordinary of citizens can make a fortune, simply by duplicating the fool-proof system that James Phang has created.
James Phang is a modern-day Robin Hood, and he is plugging the huge gaps in society by helping the poor to catch up with the rich. This should have been the job of the Government, but they are too well cushioned in their ivory towers to actually know what life is like on the ground. Blame this on their sycophantic civil servants and their "wayang" mentality, and their need to always report only positive news to their political bosses!
Your logic is so dumb that I can't think of anything to say.
Ok, I'll try my best.
Great service? Do you know how many thousands of people lost how many thousands cos of James Phang linked projects over the years? China Dream, Magic Kingdom, Emcom Taichung. Do you know many thousands put money into SE and never got back their capital? Think about it. Yes, MLM is a decent business model, it depends on the people, yes. BUT once you say that you'll get "rich", "weatlth", etc, something is wrong. For I can guarantee you there's no definite way to riches. Bill Gates did it with IT, but how many people failed? You make SE sound like a charity giving out money.
Bridging the gap? You know how much the payout of SE is now. Capital returns? How many people got back the XX% prided by Phang? So you're blaming the govt for putting a stop to the otherwise Midas' touch of Phang? Brother, SE is being investigated by the police in Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore...
I dunno if I should pity or scream at this person.
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Wow.. I am simply voicing out my personal opinions and already people are making personal attacks against me. Can we not debate the issues without resorting to mudslinging?
For the record, I am not a member of Sunshine. I have never been. I was a practising lawyer for 6 years and now I run my own business. I frequently move around between London, Dubai and Beijing. My business has got nothing to do with MLM. However, I personally know people who have benefitted from Sunshine. Of course, I also know people who have been burned by unethical MLM companies (e.g. Astral Mag). I am not defending all MLM companies. I am just urging you all to take an objective view and consider the merits of MLM instead of solely looking for things to nitpick at.
I believe that Singapore society is structured like a pyramid scheme and that there is little equity or meritocracy nowadays - therefore MLM is simply a way to help the underprivileged catch up with the elite. Isn't it amazing that a taxi driver or a kopitiam stall assistant, who used to earn $1,500 a month and has only Sec 2 education, can now earn the same amount as a university-educated doctor or lawyer?
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Originally posted by Accurate Fraud:
Wow.. I am simply voicing out my personal opinions and already people are making personal attacks against me. Can we not debate the issues without resorting to mudslinging?
For the record, I am not a member of Sunshine. I have never been. I was a practising lawyer for 6 years and now I run my own business. I frequently move around between London, Dubai and Beijing. My business has got nothing to do with MLM. However, I personally know people who have benefitted from Sunshine. Of course, I also know people who have been burned by unethical MLM companies (e.g. Astral Mag). I am not defending all MLM companies. I am just urging you all to take an objective view and consider the merits of MLM instead of solely looking for things to nitpick at.
I believe that Singapore society is structured like a pyramid scheme and that there is little equity or meritocracy nowadays - therefore MLM is simply a way to help the underprivileged catch up with the elite. Isn't it amazing that a taxi driver or a kopitiam stall assistant, who used to earn $1,500 a month and has only Sec 2 education, can now earn the same amount as a university-educated doctor or lawyer?
i was so tempted to use that big NO again.. kinda fun.. but nope im not amazed..
instead, let me ask u back a qn..
Isn't it amazing that a taxi driver or a kopitiam stall assistant, who used to earn $1,500 a month and has only Sec 2 education, is totally cheated of his money purely because of the lies and false hopes fabricated by MLM people and now his wife left him, his children cannot go to school anymore and loan sharks are coming to haunt him?
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Please, if you put it that way, then everything's a pyramid scheme!
They are called a heirachy, not a pyramid scheme! There's heirachy everywhere, from family, to schools, to companies. This is how a society works ok?
This is the way it is, at least people are earning money through work, however hard it may be.
People don't do nothing to get to the top. And yes, not all people are born equally smart too, and this has a genetic predisposition, besides environmental influence.
Your points are really contorted and truly misleading! Are you trying to advocate a revolution of sorts?
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Your logic is so dumb that I can't think of anything to say.
Ok, I'll try my best.
Great service? Do you know how many thousands of people lost how many thousands cos of James Phang linked projects over the years? China Dream, Magic Kingdom, Emcom Taichung. Do you know many thousands put money into SE and never got back their capital?
Sure, there were people who lost money. But there were also people who made money. I do not know anything about Emcom Taichung or Magic Kingdom so I can only comment based on what I know of Sunshine Empire.
Think about it. Yes, MLM is a decent business model, it depends on the people, yes. BUT once you say that you'll get "rich", "weatlth", etc, something is wrong. For I can guarantee you there's no definite way to riches. Bill Gates did it with IT, but how many people failed? You make SE sound like a charity giving out money.
I did not say it was a charity. The IT industry is not a charity either. No industry is a charity. People have lost money in IT, but the same can be said for almost any industry. Some have profited immensely from trading stocks or foreign currencies. But many people have also lost money doing the same. Some have profited from bonds, but others have lost money doing the same.
People have lost money in every single industry known to man, ranging from F&B to furniture to education. There is no free lunch in this world. MLM is no exception. There are bound to be successes and failures. It is not fair to criticise an entire industry simply because some individuals have lost money.
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Originally posted by Accurate Fraud:
Wow.. I am simply voicing out my personal opinions and already people are making personal attacks against me. Can we not debate the issues without resorting to mudslinging?
For the record, I am not a member of Sunshine. I have never been. I was a practising lawyer for 6 years and now I run my own business. I frequently move around between London, Dubai and Beijing. My business has got nothing to do with MLM. However, I personally know people who have benefitted from Sunshine. Of course, I also know people who have been burned by unethical MLM companies (e.g. Astral Mag). I am not defending all MLM companies. I am just urging you all to take an objective view and consider the merits of MLM instead of solely looking for things to nitpick at.
I believe that Singapore society is structured like a pyramid scheme and that there is little equity or meritocracy nowadays - therefore MLM is simply a way to help the underprivileged catch up with the elite. Isn't it amazing that a taxi driver or a kopitiam stall assistant, who used to earn $1,500 a month and has only Sec 2 education, can now earn the same amount as a university-educated doctor or lawyer?
Yes MLM might be a way... but it has to be 100% ethical. Like, you can't say you'll get rich with mlm. I personally know of a few people who quit school to MLM full time, in the end they only have N/O level cert and not earning anything.
James Phang?
Do a google on his name, he's very infamous here. From NOP, NTI, SE, etc.... Magic Kingdom where 2 million was raised from people and lost, China Dream, Emcom Taichung wireless (took money, but never took off). It's not about being able to generate lots of income, its about ETHICS. Like, how Anthony Ler plotted to kill his wife to get insurance payment. Tell me, is this ethical? Priding being able to have a high income (SE), but in the end the money becomes unrecoverable
The only ones earning are the top few people.
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and regarding "taking an objective view and consider the merits of MLM.."
seriously.. how about this? i urge you all to take an objective view and consider the merits of having an iron-fisted govt too.. because that way, we do not have to vote! we do not have to spend time just queueing up to vote! leave everything to them! they know what to do!
more foreign talents should come! they help to boost our economy!
MLM has its perks.. but if you are going to let the little perks of MLM that has benefitted a handful of people cover up the huge damages it has costed to numerous people, you are no different from the people in white..
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Sure, there were people who lost money. But there were also people who made money. I do not know anything about Emcom Taichung or Magic Kingdom so I can only comment based on what I know of Sunshine Empire.
I can say almost everyone lost their capital. Never gained back. Magic Kingdom? Do a google. It was a very big case here few years ago. Basically Phang said he's building a resort on Bintam or was it Batam, collected $2 million and the project never took off, people never got the money back
I did not say it was a charity. The IT industry is not a charity either. No industry is a charity. People have lost money in IT, but the same can be said for almost any industry. Some have profited immensely from trading stocks or foreign currencies. But many people have also lost money doing the same. Some have profited from bonds, but others have lost money doing the same.
You said:
James Phang is a modern-day Robin Hood, and he is plugging the huge gaps in society by helping the poor to catch up with the rich.Ok, let me rephrase. You make James Phang sound like a great person who wishes to distribute wealth to the people? Even the govt, even Warren Buffett can't do it. India's facing this widening gap problem. You said MLM is not a sure way of getting rich, and yet in your above statement I can infer otherwise.
People have lost money in every single industry known to man, ranging from F&B to furniture to education. There is no free lunch in this world. MLM is no exception. There are bound to be successes and failures. It is not fair to criticise an entire industry simply because some individuals have lost money.
I'm not criticising MLM, I'm criticising Sunshine.
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Originally posted by Accurate Fraud:
Your logic is so dumb that I can't think of anything to say.
Ok, I'll try my best.
Great service? Do you know how many thousands of people lost how many thousands cos of James Phang linked projects over the years? China Dream, Magic Kingdom, Emcom Taichung. Do you know many thousands put money into SE and never got back their capital?
Sure, there were people who lost money. But there were also people who made money. I do not know anything about Emcom Taichung or Magic Kingdom so I can only comment based on what I know of Sunshine Empire.
Think about it. Yes, MLM is a decent business model, it depends on the people, yes. BUT once you say that you'll get "rich", "weatlth", etc, something is wrong. For I can guarantee you there's no definite way to riches. Bill Gates did it with IT, but how many people failed? You make SE sound like a charity giving out money.
I did not say it was a charity. The IT industry is not a charity either. No industry is a charity. People have lost money in IT, but the same can be said for almost any industry. Some have profited immensely from trading stocks or foreign currencies. But many people have also lost money doing the same. Some have profited from bonds, but others have lost money doing the same.
People have lost money in every single industry known to man, ranging from F&B to furniture to education. There is no free lunch in this world. MLM is no exception. There are bound to be successes and failures. It is not fair to criticise an entire industry simply because some individuals have lost money.
Of course we know no industry is a charity. But NO INDUSTRY PROCLAIMS it can make you rich! except _ _ _!
you fill it in urself.. oh no its not PAP.. at least not yet..
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You are referring to specific examples of people losing money in MLM due to unethical, false promises that were given by unscrupulous distributors.
There are, unfortunately, unscrupulous people in every industry. I am sure you know of real estate agents, insurance agents, salesmen, taxi drivers etc who are unethical and unscrupulous.
It is not fair to simply label the entire industry as unethical because of a few bad eggs.
Of course I do not condone the actions of unethical MLM agents who are nothing more than glorified conmen in suits. However, there are also MLM agents who are highly ethical, and who have not only enriched their own lives, but the lives of others as well.