NTIparis = fraud+scam, run as far as you can when heard
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well i've enuf fun...................
as long as nti noe wat kind of status thy r in, i'm happy enuf.....
whether nti is loser or winner, thy noe beta..........
me 'xin zhao bu xuan'
my best frends called me to ask me stop b4 the situation 'bu ke shou shi'
well tis is realli wat best frends should do.....
unlike some ppl wif pretentious behaviour............
onli noe hw to pull u into @^%#.............
to nti ppl: bye................tis is my last post...............be rational b4 u do anything.........the more u get agitated the more it shows tat ur poison is in ur body...........pls do some self cleansing..........
hw to self cleanse????
stop going to nti lessons...........
thy r all propaganda...............
stop all ur activities & stop all recruitment..........
the more u recruit the more ppl will suffer
pls admit u have been conned & stop ur w a y w a r d behavior b4 u go crazy......
leave the coy & stop thinking abt getting ur capital......it's useless........
be a newbie..............
start anew......
turn over a new leaf.........
jus my 1 million worth of opinion.............
bye................ -
To all those regular customers here, I would like to first congrat you all.
From the way I see you guys contributing to this forum, I can see the enthusiasm within you in promoting anti-MLM ideas.
But looking on the other side of the picture, it is also sad to see that regular contributors to this forum are doing nothing constructive to yourself and the society, bcos all your time are wasted in making non-constructive comments in this forum.
So unless you tell me you have achieved something remarkable so far, I would feel that all your -2cent worth of comments are just based on that ignorant and narrow minded brain of yours. My advice to you is to read up more on what is going on in the world before you start to further make a fool of yourself in this forum.
I wouldnt go on to say what is good or bad about multi level marketing or whatever companies you guys are talking about. But I like to say use your ass(since you guys dun have a smart brain) to think if Singapore would allow the existance of any "fraud" companies. -
this is a forum, it's for discussion, we want to say mlm good or bad, there's nothing wrong! The forum has served it's purpose by allowing us to share and discuss what we feel.
Forums are one of the best places to gather feedback and reviews. (even though some may be crap)
You must be one of those mlm ppl right. hahaha pls continue ur "everything in life also got ppl excel and fail, those who fail, blame the system, blame the company, but those who excel of coz say the system can work. you cannot make it doesn't mean others can not" speech. Hahahaa...
What such speeches emphasize is true, but they are being very vague, not revealing to the potential customer of the mlm companies anything by using such speeches. basically u mlm are tokking cock. -
MLM rocks. Singapore government are afriad of MLM. You can be millionaires if you join MLM, my boss say so de. We are true gentlemen that contribute to the pathetic society as you know it, bow down to us MLMers. We rocks!
+1 -
hhaaa!!! dont know it's u or ur boss naivE!! haha
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when ppl tell me they have started many companies, and how good they are at it. my first reaction is, "What's wrong with the first one?" So the two guys who started microsoft are idiots because they only founded one company?
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Questions to ponder:
1. Are the products really from France/Paris? God knows!
2. Their target audience? NSFs? Naive youngsters? If my memory serves me right, NSFs are prohibited from joining such activities. NTI should know that better.
3. Do you think their products say an aroma bottle really cost that much? Where does the bulk of the money go? Whose pocket? You guys shd know.
4. Are you sure you can get 100% refund if say you just signed up but haven't collected your products. Well, apparently not, they may say that they have to deduct certain amt for administrative purposes (creating your accounts). That could mean that you get only 90% back.
In conclusion, the message I'm sending across is simple. Don't be fooled by well-rehearsed talks/ceremonies. Seeing really means believing?? Always take a step back and look at the bigger picture first before you do anything. That's my advice to those who are tempted to join NTI or any MLM. -
my friend got charged for joining mlm and soliciting in camp.
damn stupid, some more he was going to become accounting student, basic common sense should tell u mlm schemes dont work. damn stupid. -
leddy..... seems to me you know a lot abt mlm. can share with me what is network marketing and what is mlm? based on what logic you say mlm can't make it? then how you explain why Amway exist for at least 50 yrs and the gobal turnover is more than a 3 million a month? did you see any "mama" shop that last 50 yrs and has this kind of turnovers? Thank you.
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mlm companies like amway exists becoz somewhere along the line it has done something right to sustain it's operations. But if you were to do a research on amway, u will also find that it's associated with many scandals and they had paid millions to compensate. Not that there are no other businesses that are involved in scandals, just that mlms are very popular with scandals and scams.
http://www.mlmwatch.org/ check out this website, the author has done extensive researches into mlm and it's problems. As far as I'm concerned, what the mlm ppl advocates is far less convincing than the arguments this author has put fore.
The general sentiments of the public is that mlm is filled with flaws, why else do u think there are more ppl against it than for it? I personally have seen how friends and friends of close friends crumble under the facade mlm companies created.
If you go for any sales pitch, the mlm ppl advocates that this form of business is superior and has created great wealth for many ppl. but when you probe further and point out certain fundamental flaws in this form of distribution, the mlm ppl start using vague examples like how in every systems and companies there are ppl who succeed and ppl who fail. I have no doubts that is true, and it is pretty much true for MLM companies too, there are ppl who succeed, but I dare say more ppl fail or are financially worse off than b4 they joined these mlm companies. It is not really like what these mlm recruiters advocate!
Think about it, how does a company generate revenues? Through the sales of its products. Mlm entices ppl to join them with the allure of passive income which means after you have done your fair share of hard work, you can relac, shake leg, collect money. I have hardly seen any mlm companies that really focus on it's products, creating value or passing off savings to it's consumers. Recruitments are generally about how to earn passive incomes. So if everyone is busy recruiting, who is doing all the selling? And think about it, as a distributor, who can u sell these products to? PPL in shopping centres? NO, u sell to ppl u know, ur friends and relatives. Provided these products are good and perishable, ur friends and relatives may continue to purchase these products from you.
However when you look at the products spore mlm companies selling, mattresses that cost thousands of dollars and once purchase no one's gonna buy it again in the next couple of yrs? and it's like not its relatively cheap and perishable like a can of coca-cola or mars bars. Look at the supplements sold, are they generally superior to the vitamins sold in retail outlets? Has it got a more superior consumer goodwill aka branding than brands such as Blackmore?
When you have run out of avenues to sell these products to esp if they are not perishable or geniunely superior, who are u going to turn to? Recruitments of coz! get ur friends to join and become ur downline so that they sell, u can just collect money. What happens if ur friends suck and aren'r able to sell? u run of sales and therefore commissions, and u are probably spending more time recruiting ppl, hoping they make sales for you. So at the end of the day, you make money by recruiting ppl who can sell or stupid enuff to buy the products themselves so u can earn the commissions. so the answer is yes u can earn money, but u also have to work extremely hard recruiting able ppl to sell, and this cost huge amount of time. Eventually ppl will realise they are not making money and start leaving and you have to work even harder to continue recruiting.
So mlm is pretty much like any other jobs or part time jobs, it's not really any superior than other kind of work out there. Any companies that have sustained sales revenues are able to pay stable salaries to it's employees and encourage them to create sales through commissions. mlms are not such companies, therefore the income u are all entirely thru commissions. I understand that the reason mlm companies say you can only earn through commissions because that will spur you to work hard. Then it's no more passive income! You gotta work hard recruiting or selling in order for the income to come in. It's not like you put in a certain amt of money for an investment and that investment is able to give you a good rate of return say 15% or more every year.
It is the lies these mlm ppl tell or the facade they try create to get ppl to join them that pisses ppl off. No one likes to be led on. And think about it, if these form of distributions is so effective, why aint nike, adidas, macs, burger king, or blackmore, gnc doing it? Why would they spend billions to advertise and get celebrities to endorsE?
I also understand that many mlm ppl are fans of robert kiyosaki's books. I'm also a fan of his books, probably rich dad poor dad only la, coz the other books are just repetitive versions of RDPD. And I think his books are fun to read FICTION books, not financial guide books. If you want to read good business, finance books, The Intelligent Investor, Security Analysis are good examples.
"The truth is MLM's espoused core business -- personal retailing -- is contrary to trends in communication technology, cost-effective distribution, and consumer buying preferences. The retailing activity is, in reality, only a pretext for the actual core business, which is enrolling investors in pyramid organizations that promise exponential income growth."
http://www.mlmwatch.org/01General/10lies.html
My friend who was trying to get me to join mlm even tried to convince me 50% of fortune 500 companies are MLMs, I'm very inclined to say he is lying through his balls coz he has no brains to think. -
sorry, read the one abv, dont know why I posted 2 times.
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wow!!! nice long reply! well done!
i agree tat in everything we do, we have to be cautious. but hey, most of us throw caution to the wind anyway....so that's why the forums exists to lend a helping hand when we seek it!
thanks for sharing! -
That is bcos they need to keep stock or somesort of min maintenace...that sort of plan is good for company pocket NOT the people.Originally posted by leddy:....but I dare say more ppl fail or are financially worse off than b4 they joined these mlm companies.
Also, i do come across some MLM products that are patented.
How many retails product you know are patented?
Would any MLM company spend few tens of thousands dollars to patented if it is not worth to patent?
just my share of thoughts -
Patenting does not say much about the products.
A patent is just a grant made by a government that confers upon the creator of an invention the sole right to make, use, and sell that invention for a set period of time.
I created a new locking system for my door, and I got it patented. Does it mean it is any more superior than the locks you have in your doors at home?
I patent it so that I have the right to use it and no one can copy my design and make money by selling it. You patent an invention because you want the sole right to it, and you believe it might be a hot selling product that could earn you lotsa money. But that is you believe only. There are many patented products out there that are not necessary great or hot selling or of superior quality. It's just a way of creating an ownership.
I understand what you mean by mlm selling patented products. but it does not make the mlm companies way of doing business or its products any more superior.
If you look at corps like Walmart, Kmart, they are able to buy large quantities at lower price and therefore pass on the savings to consumers. Consumers knowing they are able to get the same product at lower price and at greater varieties in walmart, so choose to shop there. Walmart is thus able to generate large sales due to the it's abilities to capture a larger market share and earn high rates of returns, at the same time creating a reputable brand for it's company. of coz im tokking in simpified terms, but look at mlms, they claim they only go thru two or three channels - manufacturer to mlm to consumers, yet it's products are not able to be competitively priced because there are many LINES in the mlm that wants to earn commissions thru the sale of the products. so MLMs are more like doing a service to themselves than to the consumers.
When u do business, the consumers are paying u for the service or products, yet if u cant offer any value to the consumers such as quality products at lower price or great varieties (which mlm are unable to do so if u look at the variety of products SPORE mlms have), why would the consumers want to shop with u? The bottomline is MLMs are more interested in making money than providing service to it's consumers. as a consumer if u know that's the attitude of the companies would u still buy from them? you would jump ship right? Companies like walmart are able to make profits and yet still pass off savings to it's consumers is the reason why consumers carry on buying from them and walmart carries on making money. Companies that are able to survive and prosper are the ones that operate in the interest of consumers (savings, quality) and shareholders (profits). Or have some form of monoplistic characters like Microsoft etc. I dont see MLMs anywhere near that, at least not for the ones in singapore.
Ppl should think twice and consider what they hear from the mlm companies. Many things they say are too good to be true.
Oh yeah, mlm bosses always tell the story of how they were poor in the past and had created a fortune today and wants to help you get rich...HAHAAA it's damn funny. But if you are interested in such stories, you can try reading this.
http://www.buffettsecrets.com/rose-blumkin-nebraska-furniture-mart.htm Warren Buffett once mentioned that MBA grads are better off spending few months watching how this woman do business than few yrs in business school. I dont know how true, hhaa but her story is interesting.
just something to share with u guys, FOC -
interesting story abt tis Mrs B. Got anymore?
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u r right that patenting a product does not necessary mean superior products. But it can be also be superior correct?Originally posted by leddy:Patenting does not say much about the products.
A patent is just a grant made by a government that confers upon the creator of an invention the sole right to make, use, and sell that invention for a set period of time.
I created a new locking system for my door, and I got it patented. Does it mean it is any more superior than the locks you have in your doors at home?
A product which A find it superior but B may not find it superior. B may find a superior product yet A dun find it.
How much did it cost you to patent your locking system? I suppose you patent locally only? I believe that there are several "type" of patenting. From "cheaper" kind to those very details that cost tens of thousands.
Did u patented your idea in hope that you yourself can sell the design or idea to company and make some money?...but look at mlms, they claim they only go thru two or three channels -manufacturer to mlm to consumers, yet it's products are not able to be competitively priced because there are many LINES in the mlm that wants to earn commissions thru the sale of the products.
Sad to say that there are indeed too many many MLM companies that sell rubbish and they are the black sheep of the direct selling industries. They damaged the correct way of selling thru MLM.
But i guess in your eye ALL MLM are suckers?
I came across many branded products such as sharp, philiips, valentio, even tiffany jewelly are selling thru a MLM company.
Why would they sell thru MLM then?
This is not the case where the MLM buy in bulk and then sell them. Any company or person rich enough can buy tonnes in whole sale and sell at a profit.
These branded products that sell thru this MLM company can only be sold thru this MLM company and therefore cannot be found in retails shops. -
I believe the ppl who started mlm are actually really smart, to me, it's more like a way of distribution and less of a business. I think it started with great ideals but has been subjected to alot of abuse because many ppl have access to it and these ppl do not operate with honesty and integrity. I'm negative towards mlm becoz of the companies using such form of distributions are abusive, not with mlm in particular.
Which is why i think ppl should stay clear from mlm businesses to protect themselves if they do not understand it well enuff to take advantage of it thru honest means.
I'm sure those who side with mlm are also aware the tactics used by these recruiters are rather dishonest and makes ur blood boil. I.e. not letting u know what they are dealing with until u go down to their office where they have a higher chance of recruiting you, painting a picture perfect story to you and keep the negative details away from you, so u are unable to make an informed decision, recruiting NSF when they are supposed to be doing NS FULL TIME, dealing with impressionable teenagers who have little or nil business knowledge and advicing you not to discuss with ur parents and friends fearin u might find them negative and shy away from them. -
So sure that the usual retail businesses are wholly ethical and do not cheat customers?
I beg to differ. Although I do agree a significant number of MLM companies are wholly scams, or totally flawed, I dont agree that they can be more unscrupulous than the usual corporate businesses.
Its all abt profit making, and its the method of packaging flawed products, projecting good corporate image and so on, is what every company in the business world would do, and they called it marketing.
I find arguments for or against MLM are quite flawed for the moment.
Most of it is just media hype, some 'expert articles' and also some biased narrowed personal observations of the MLM marketing strategy.
Its these that gives u crap about 50% of the Fortune 500 companies are MLM companies, or that businesses are expected to be wholly social responsible, and that they wouldnt cheat their customers. -
I dont know where ppl get the ideas that businesses cannot be operated with honesty and integrity and at the same time being profitable. It's no wonder singaporeans are generally not as entrepreneurial. I agree with you that in order for a company to make money, they have to sell their products way above cost price and reduce the cost of operations as much as possible while gaining as much market share as possible. All these can be done thru honest, intelligent and creative means. The reason some companies get into trouble with the law because they are unethical with their operations and attempted or had cheated their consumers, shareholders and employees, ie Enron, Citiraya.
Companies that do not operate ethically will eventually face the law or avoided by consumers and investors. -
Ethics and social responsibility is not the deciding factor in entrepeneurship, although it helps play a part.
Consider Bill Gates and Microsoft,they are not socially responsible towards the consumers by monopolising the market
Jack Welch and GE isnt socially responsible towards the employees either, by blatantly laying off workers to make the management profitable and less bureaucratic in the 70s and 80s.
On the other end of the continuum, we have Herb Kelleher who refuse to retrench workers in downtime.
Yet they all survive. When you consider the different layers of ethics and social responsibilities, profitability is the common goal ,and is a consideration before companies decides whether they wish to be ethical or responsible.
If companies such as Microsoft feels its comfortable, as well as profitable to squeeze the OS market, it will do so..and did it.
As long as any measure goes towards survivability and expansion of the company's value, why not? Enron, is an example of wrong path taken, rather than being just unethical in their dealings. Its a bubble waiting to explode, and it affects shareholders and the management closely.
Sure you can bring in the government. Increase taxes to aid social expenditure, tighten the regulations for greater checks and balances in the corporate world.
Do they possibly restrict creativity and entrepenurship? I say yes, they do.
I cant remember the research name, its in one of my books. The only anomaly they found when studying entrepenurship is the Japanese corporate world. It is the only anomaly defeating the factors the made up entrepenenurship in the Western world - allowing employees to freewheel, freerer working environment, let employees break rules...
Singapore government is basically pro business. Its a heck of a lot of consideration that they allow MLM to be unbanned in 2001. Not forgetting the hosts of companies that petition the Singapore government to unban MLM after the s888.com saga. I admit as much, there isnt much consumer rights here, which parallel the fact we dont have much freedom of speech anyway.
You have to prove beyond doubt, not to me or other,s but to the government, that MLM dont work. And this require more than just the posts i see peopel put up here. -
Your pts are pretty valid, however I'm not in the business of proving mlms dont work. I'm just negative towards them and voicing my sentiments why they dont benefit the majority of people.
So are you into mlms? -
Nope. Currently, I should let it out that I am just a student, and an observer..someway..haha..of the MLM industry. Did joined in one or two last time...
I am more for regulations, tightening enforcement so that scams dont go thru loopholes in the laws. -
So why don't I know anybody who's join sharp, philips, valentio and tifanny a la mlm style, nor anybody from from the above companies who claim they are MLM? And can you elaborate how are the above MLMs?
u r right that patenting a product does not necessary mean superior products. But it can be also be superior correct?
A product which A find it superior but B may not find it superior. B may find a superior product yet A dun find it.
How much did it cost you to patent your locking system? I suppose you patent locally only? I believe that there are several "type" of patenting. From "cheaper" kind to those very details that cost tens of thousands.
Did u patented your idea in hope that you yourself can sell the design or idea to company and make some money?
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Quality may be subjective but still, a good business is generall those that the majority finds superior. Let's take handphone as example. Nokia have 20+% market share and the the list goes down, with many competitors. And you came up with a handphone, after many years and millions of dollars of investment on research and development, with a technology and interface that only 0.1% people like, no matter how you promote it. Do you think this business is worthwhile?
If the general price for locks costs between 5 bucks for a normal one, to 100 bucks for a premium one, and you spend came up with mildly superior lock(slightly better design) that costs $1000 just to make one. Ask yourself franky, which would you take? Is the tad increase of quality justify a 900% to 19,900% premium? Worse, what it, like most sg mlms, they sell at $1000 but NOT superior in any way?
It doesn't matter whether it's patented or not. If the customers don't like it, they don't buy it, and they don't care whether it's patented or not. If they don't buy it, you don't earn. Simple. Patent is nothing more than preventing other people from copying your idea to make money for a number of years.
[quote]Sad to say that there are indeed too many many MLM companies that sell rubbish and they are the black sheep of the direct selling industries. They damaged the correct way of selling thru MLM.
But i guess in your eye ALL MLM are suckers?
I came across many branded products such as sharp, philiips, valentio, even tiffany jewelly are selling thru a MLM company.
Why would they sell thru MLM then?
This is not the case where the MLM buy in bulk and then sell them. Any company or person rich enough can buy tonnes in whole sale and sell at a profit.
These branded products that sell thru this MLM company can only be sold thru this MLM company and therefore cannot be found in retails shops.
I guess business is an 'either you get it or you don't' thing. People who cannot understand the fundamentals of profitable and sustainable business workings will never do.
leddy - Woah...you've just written all the things that I've always wanted to say. But my essay skills like shit...sian...ideas pop out now and then but refuse to come out when i most wanted to write them out. I used to be a fan of Kiyosaki until I read books on Buffett and those by Ben Graham, Philip Fisher* and Micheal Dell then I found those by Kiyosaki so damn bloody superficial.
*I think the 'Conservative Investors Sleep well' portion in his 'Common Stocks and Uncommon Profits' is the best investment stuff I've ever read - Truthful, logical, concise, easy-to understand, yet so powerful. -
Hi Teekh, I've read 8 books by robert kiyosaki. I think just read one book is good enough. After reading 8 books, I know it's good to be financially free, but I have learnt nothing about how to get rich from those books! That's why I think they are nice story books, not business books.
I found this website that concurs with how I feel about his books, but this guy is obviously out to 'kill' RK
http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html
Anyway I think most ppl are better off reading books about Warren Buffett, Benjamin Graham, or Peter Lynch. Even economics and physcology books are better. But most importantly is judge for yourself what is right and wrong and applicable in your context. Many of these american books talk about things that dont apply here.
I think alot of ppl lack business knowledge which is why they think MLMs are so good, or they are just greedy enough to want to go MLM and earn a couple of quick bucks and leave after that.
My idea about getting rich is that great wealth is accumulated over time thru strong and consistent returns on ur investments. I mean there are many other ways too, but I would choose to put the main bulk on my money in such businesses, where calculated risks are taken. -
Yah...true, a lot of stuffs are applicable to america only(ie 401k, tax system, etc) but still, it's about learning the fundamentals which are more important. The rules can differ, but the fundamentals do not(Think mahjong!). And I think anyone discrete and intelligent enough should be able to know what to absorb and what not to. It's not only the 'how to' which is important but more importantly, it's also about understanding 'why it works/does not work'.Originally posted by leddy:Hi Teekh, I've read 8 books by robert kiyosaki. I think just read one book is good enough. After reading 8 books, I know it's good to be financially free, but I have learnt nothing about how to get rich from those books! That's why I think they are nice story books, not business books.
I found this website that concurs with how I feel about his books, but this guy is obviously out to 'kill' RK
http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html
Anyway I think most ppl are better off reading books about Warren Buffett, Benjamin Graham, or Peter Lynch. Even economics and physcology books are better. But most importantly is judge for yourself what is right and wrong and applicable in your context. Many of these american books talk about things that dont apply here.
I think alot of ppl lack business knowledge which is why they think MLMs are so good, or they are just greedy enough to want to go MLM and earn a couple of quick bucks and leave after that.
My idea about getting rich is that great wealth is accumulated over time thru strong and consistent returns on ur investments. I mean there are many other ways too, but I would choose to put the main bulk on my money in such businesses, where calculated risks are taken.
One encik just summed up the fundamentals of business under 4Ps.
Product(desirability, quality, user-friendliness, relevancy, perishability, etc)
Price(Cost of production, efficiency, competitiveness, affordability, etc)
Promotion(reputation; marketing, gimmicks, advertising, sales, ethics, branding, good service and support, etc)
Place(aka accessibility and convenience; prime location, e-commerce, etc)
Many mlms don't even pass one of the 4 fundamentals. Lousy or average products, exhorbitant prices, irritating pushy sales tactics and lots of cheats and scandals resulting in a very very very bad reputation, and not easily accessible also. How to be successful and profitable in the long-run? I think gambling could also be a good way to get rich, since 'everything also got people who are successful(minority) and those who fail(vast majority)' yea? (of course i'm being sarcastic)
Maybe I'll send u a privy yea, leddy?