Taxes: Singapore Vs. Australia. Who is better off?
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this is so true...Originally posted by fymk:Money isn't everything really.
It is whether one is happy with the opportunities and the lifestyle a country offers.
If I wanted money, I would have gone to USA.
I've stayed in Germany for 4 months... Everything there is good, but nothing beats homeland... There are certain things in Sg that I have learned to appreciate after being there... that actually makes me think that Sg is not that bad a place to live in -
if the calculations are to be done, they will be done according to your methods, which is already flawed.Originally posted by maurizio13:There is just one big flaw in your understanding and calculation.
We will see when your calculation is posted.
So how is my understanding flawed? Would you mind explaining? The main proposal here is not to have the minimum wage law included. -
I suppose all the countries listed produce their own beef patties?Originally posted by kramnave:Big Macs are bigger there. Their labour costs are higher, then again we import our beef and our land costs are higher, have to pay for chilli sauce there blah blah blah.
Even if you are in the USA, the beef patties might have been produced in another state and city. Unless you want Macdonalds to build a beef patty factory in every city where they have an outlet.
Big Mac Index is what Economist used to compare purchasing power parity, I didn't conceptualized it.
Chilli sauce? They give out mayo in Europe and ketchup in the states.
The way you speak, I am beginning to question your level of maturity.
Hmmm.....interesting......you are still playing Nintendo DS?
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I will let you do the calculations first.Originally posted by eagle:if the calculations are to be done, they will be done according to your methods, which is already flawed.
So how is my understanding flawed? Would you mind explaining? The main proposal here is not to have the minimum wage law included.
Let me have the pleasure of seeing your efforts gone to nought. -
no point now. I just realised that the lower bound is also already at the minimum wage standardsOriginally posted by maurizio13:I will let you do the calculations first.
Let me have the pleasure of seeing your efforts gone to nought.
Anyway, your reasonings of your values are already flawed, as I have pointed out, due to the inclusion of the minimum wage law, which makes it an unfair comparison. -
That's why I asked you to calculate first.Originally posted by eagle:no point now. I just realised that the lower bound is also already at the minimum wage standards
Anyway, your reasonings of your values are already flawed, as I have pointed out, due to the inclusion of the minimum wage law, which makes it an unfair comparison.
From your first statement, I already know where you went wrong.
Some countries have minimum wage laws, some don't. The government of those country that impose minimum wage laws, are those that care about the living standards of their lower wage citizens.
My reasoning flawed?
First of all we are comparing countries and living flesh. We are not comparing electronic circuits, whereby if you have a circuit with 4 resistors in series, you need to have the same 4 resistors in series in another circuit to compare. It's not like an experimental environment where variables can be controlled.
I understand your logic, because you are an engineer, you are taught to think in that way. Need to have 2 similar criteria to compare, but we are just comparing salaries and withholding everything else. Just comparing salaries of the lower wage earners in Singapore and Australia.
Do you know why there is such great difference between the high earner and low earners? Why our Gini Coefficient is higher than most similar developed countries?
If you used minimum wage laws as a basis to discredit my analysis, you might as well use weather, race or geography to discredit it. -
Just by your paragraph here about similar criteria and withholding everything else, minimum wage law should not be included in the question and analysis.Originally posted by maurizio13:I understand your logic, because you are an engineer, you are taught to think in that way. Need to have 2 similar criteria to compare, but we are just comparing salaries and withholding everything else. Just comparing salaries of the lower wage earners in Singapore and Australia.
One of the reason is the absence of minimum wage law. For most first world countries that you mention has a lower Gini coefficient, there is a presence of a minimum wage law, or at least strong trade unions that has the power of collective bargaining. Singapore has none of both.Originally posted by maurizio13:Do you know why there is such great difference between the high earner and low earners? Why our Gini Coefficient is higher than most similar developed countries?
My post is already not inclusive of your analysis of waiter's wages, in which the restaurants they are working in here in Singapore charges less for the same amount of food as compared to the restaurants in other first world countries. In addition, restaurants in waiters work in here have to compete with hawker centres. FYI, restaurants like Sakae earn <$3k per branch after deducting worker fees. -
Originally posted by kramnave:
I almost died laughing...... no lar really bigger meh? Ok in my opinion its tastier but bigger ?
[b]Big Macs are bigger there. Their labour costs are higher, then again we import our beef and our land costs are higher, have to pay for chilli sauce there blah blah blah.
[/b]
Land cost and cars are 2 of the biggest tickets in one's life.... without assistance it could take a lifetime to own them (paying up mortgage).
Assuming low- mid income workers
Earn less + the 2 tickets cost a hell of alot more = Sg
Earn more + the 2 tickets cost a hell of alot less = Au
BUT...... not your home country, leave all friends behind, other stuff cost more...... traffic fines cost alot more
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woa! can stay in germany for 4 months..Originally posted by eagle:this is so true...
I've stayed in Germany for 4 months... Everything there is good, but nothing beats homeland... There are certain things in Sg that I have learned to appreciate after being there... that actually makes me think that Sg is not that bad a place to live in
ur parents must be loaded! congrats. -
1.i beg your pardon.LKY was legal advisor for labour unions.Originally posted by eagle:One of the reason is the absence of minimum wage law. For most first world countries that you mention has a lower Gini coefficient, there is a presence of a minimum wage law, or at least strong trade unions that has the power of collective bargaining.
Singapore has none of both.
......
2.there are few ministers happen to be top brass in NTUC>>
correct me if i am wrong.
LIM SWEE SAY and LIM HNG KIANGNTUC & PAP:
Trade Unions in Singapore had links with the People's Action Party before the NTUC was set up in 1961. In fact, more than half the protem committee members of the the PAP were unionists. The majority of those present at the inauguration of the Party in 1954 were NTUC members.
After the PAP came to power in 1959, the government built a home for the labour movement in the heart of the business district. However, an expanding NTUC needed more space, and so in March 2004, the organisation's headquarters was moved to a spanking new choice location at One Marina Boulevard (between Shenton Way and Collyer Quay), the first skyscraper on a road that will in future lead to Marina South...
HOW MUCH IT WILL COST IF SOLD IN OPEN TENDER?
In AMK,govt wait for 2 or 3 years to settle the land
cost of a office development by labour union.But at the end,
govt took back the land because of price issue.
Labour Unions,u can say control by PAP.But i can say they work
together.Dunt treat men in the street or workers,be they earn
500 or 5000,union members or non--member,easy to be
bullied.
If they find too much,they will against PAP.
We are not sheep.Thanks you. -
Some of the kids here are not from the typical average or low income family.Originally posted by fishbuff:woa! can stay in germany for 4 months..
ur parents must be loaded! congrats.
4 months + air ticket in Germany must have cost a bomb. -
I posed this question to onlooker123 in another thread but he doesn't seem to have the guts to reply to my question.Originally posted by genie99:I almost died laughing...... no lar really bigger meh? Ok in my opinion its tastier but bigger ?
Land cost and cars are 2 of the biggest tickets in one's life.... without assistance it could take a lifetime to own them (paying up mortgage).
Assuming low- mid income workers
Earn less + the 2 tickets cost a hell of alot more = Sg
Earn more + the 2 tickets cost a hell of alot less = Au
BUT...... not your home country, leave all friends behind, other stuff cost more...... traffic fines cost alot more
One simple question.Originally posted by onlooker123:HDB flat cost $30K to $50K to build? How did you arrive at that figure?
I'm assuming this figure doesn't include land cost.
Of course, if you think Govt should give out land for free, then should charge only on construction cost.
To whom does Singapore belong to.
The citizens of Singapore or the government?
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If Singapore belongs to the citizens and we are the ultimate shareholder.
A simple analogy, every citizen holds a single share of this company called Singapore.
This company called Singapore has assets like land, all the citizens require to use this asset to build their house on. The company Singapore sells land at exhorbitant market rates to all her shareholders. In any other company, the profits generated would normally be distributed back to the shareholders, BUT this company decides to keep all it's huge profits from the sale of land to shareholders as reserves, in the anticipation of cataclysmic business cycle (which will never happen).
One might argue that land has alternative uses, like building factories and offices by big multinational corporations. But regardless of these alternative uses, they still need to provide the population with an average housing, else Singapore will be all factories and no housing.
In my opinion, market priced land should not be included in the calculation of public housing. -
Maybe you should ask the Singapore government to impose minimum wage law, or Australia to repeal their minimum wage law, like you would in your science experiment (where variables can be controlled), so that it would provide a fairer analysis.Originally posted by eagle:One of the reason is the absence of minimum wage law. For most first world countries that you mention has a lower Gini coefficient, there is a presence of a minimum wage law, or at least strong trade unions that has the power of collective bargaining. Singapore has none of both.
My post is already not inclusive of your analysis of waiter's wages, in which the restaurants they are working in here in Singapore charges less for the same amount of food as compared to the restaurants in other first world countries. In addition, restaurants in waiters work in here have to compete with hawker centres. FYI, restaurants like Sakae earn <$3k per branch after deducting worker fees.
I agree with you that restaurants in Australia is more expensive than Singapore, but a typical low wage worker wouldn't eat in a restaurant in Singapore and Australia now; would he?
Why you may ask that, we have more hawker centres competing with restaurants. It's because of the old man's grand plan of having approximately less than 15% of citizens as highly educated, while keeping the remaining 80% in low level jobs. This has created a shortage in high end jobs and an over supply of low end jobs. Shortage equates to high prices; over supply equates to lower prices.
Sakae Sushi makes less than $3,000 a month? Is that your approximation or do you have their audited profit and loss statement. Even if it's true, does it mean that all the restaurants here make less than $3,000 a month. -
no need to. I have my own scholarship and sponsorship from DAAD, the MOE of germany. I also have free lodging given to me by my student exchange university. In all, the additional amount I spent is less that what I would spend in Singapore from my bank account. And yes, I stay in a HDB flat like many average families, and my dad is not considered "highly educated" in today's society.Originally posted by maurizio13:Some of the kids here are not from the typical average or low income family.
4 months + air ticket in Germany must have cost a bomb. -
Sakae Sushi info is from my uncle, who has worked with them before. If you read carefully, I did not say that Sakae Sushi makes less than $3,000 a month. It is the amount they earned per branch, which means with 10 branches, the whole group will earn near $30k a month.Originally posted by maurizio13:Maybe you should ask the Singapore government to impose minimum wage law, or Australia to repeal their minimum wage law, like you would in your science experiment (where variables can be controlled), so that it would provide a fairer analysis.
I agree with you that restaurants in Australia is more expensive than Singapore, but a typical low wage worker wouldn't eat in a restaurant in Singapore and Australia now; would he?
Why you may ask that, we have more hawker centres competing with restaurants. It's because of the old man's grand plan of having approximately less than 15% of citizens as highly educated, while keeping the remaining 80% in low level jobs. This has created a shortage in high end jobs and an over supply of low end jobs. Shortage equates to high prices; over supply equates to lower prices.
Sakae Sushi makes less than $3,000 a month? Is that your approximation or do you have their audited profit and loss statement. Even if it's true, does it mean that all the restaurants here make less than $3,000 a month.
And if it is as bad as you said that the poor in Sg have low buying power, and if Sg is to emulate first world countries, then ya, a minimum wage law should be implemented. Yet the govt "do not want Singaporeans to develop a crutch mentality", although they want Singaporeans to store CPF with them.
Of course a low wage worker wouldn't eat in a restaurant in Singapore or Australia, but if a low wage worker works long working hours just to have the funds and means to survive, how much time does he/she have to make his/her own meals? In sg, low wage workers has the choice of getting food with sufficient nutrition from hawker centres. Not really so in other countries. Do you think bread with a long sausage is better and cheaper than a plate of rice with meat and vege?
I have no idea why you would equate lowly educated with low wages. Living with such a mindset will only make one forever stuck in the particular wage group with little improvement. Education is only a step in life, and a paper cert only helps in being an employee, and employees will usually not earn too much.
Even a fresh engine grad with first class honours earns less than the average wage in Singapore (ard $3.2k now), with uni sch fees debt amounting to $24k. A first class accountant fresh grad also earns around $2.4k a month, and with the debt of needing to pay the uni fees amounting to $18k. Whereas a waiter perhaps earning $1.2k a month has probably no such debt, and has perhaps entered the working world earlier than the uni grad.
There are also just so many living examples of how the supposedly "lowly educated" earning more than (and employing) the supposedly "highly educated" people in Singapore. I've personally seen hawkers driving Mercedes and living in landed houses. And as an additional info, there's this HK restaurant in Munich, whose owner owns a PhD, an example of so called "highly educated" doing a job that does not require a cert. It is quite likely that he earns more from running the restaurant than doing research work on his PhD.
However, I believe the main problems are not with the above, but rather, with families who could not even land a job as a waiter, whose income is not fixed, who, no matter in which part of the world they are at, can hardly find a job, be it in Sg or in Aussie. -
very good. im impressed. IME is not an average research centre so if u can do your attachment there, then u are certainly capable.Originally posted by eagle:no need to. I have my own scholarship and sponsorship from DAAD, the MOE of germany. I also have free lodging given to me by my student exchange university. In all, I spent less that what I would spend in Singapore from my bank account.
sigh.. Compared to my young days selling drink at factories in my primary school, and living hand to mouth every month in sembawang kampung. im envious..Originally posted by maurizio13:Some of the kids here are not from the typical average or low income family.
4 months + air ticket in Germany must have cost a bomb. -
I wasn't doing that well all the way till O levels... It is only during As that I improved a lot...Originally posted by fishbuff:very good. im impressed. IME is not an average research centre so if u can do your attachment there, then u are certainly capable.
Then nowadays, I realised that a cert is not everything. The best way to earn is to come out and be your own boss, and succeed. It's hard in Sg for one to rise through the ranks if you are forever an employee. There's a reason why I'm learning more languages (and other things) with some sacrifice on my final CAP.
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I find it hard to believe that Sakae Sushi makes less than $3,000 for each branch. Your uncle is in the accounts department? Even if it were so, does it mean all restaurants make less than $3,000 a month.Originally posted by eagle:Sakae Sushi info is from my uncle, who has worked with them before. If you read carefully, I did not say that Sakae Sushi makes less than $3,000 a month. It is the amount they earned per branch, which means with 10 branches, the whole group will earn near $30k a month.
And if it is as bad as you said that the poor in Sg have low buying power, and if Sg is to emulate first world countries, then ya, a minimum wage law should be implemented. Yet the govt "do not want Singaporeans to develop a crutch mentality", although they want Singaporeans to store CPF with them.
Of course a low wage worker wouldn't eat in a restaurant in Singapore or Australia, but if a low wage worker works long working hours just to have the funds and means to survive, how much time does he/she have to make his/her own meals? In sg, low wage workers has the choice of getting food with sufficient nutrition from hawker centres. Not really so in other countries. Do you think bread with a long sausage is better and cheaper than a plate of rice with meat and vege?
I have no idea why you would equate lowly educated with low wages. Living with such a mindset will only make one forever stuck in the particular wage group with little improvement. Education is only a step in life, and a paper cert only helps in being an employee, and employees will usually not earn too much.
Even a fresh engine grad with first class honours earns less than the average wage in Singapore (ard $3.2k now), with uni sch fees debt amounting to $24k. A first class accountant fresh grad also earns around $2.4k a month, and with the debt of needing to pay the uni fees amounting to $18k. Whereas a waiter perhaps earning $1.2k a month has probably no such debt, and has perhaps entered the working world earlier than the uni grad.
There are also just so many living examples of how the supposedly "lowly educated" earning more than (and employing) the supposedly "highly educated" people in Singapore. I've personally seen hawkers driving Mercedes and living in landed houses. And as an additional info, there's this HK restaurant in Munich, whose owner owns a PhD, an example of so called "highly educated" doing a job that does not require a cert. It is quite likely that he earns more from running the restaurant than doing research work on his PhD.
However, I believe the main problems are not with the above, but rather, with families who could not even land a job as a waiter, whose income is not fixed, who, no matter in which part of the world they are at, can hardly find a job, be it in Sg or in Aussie.
I have worked in an F&B chain with lots of outlets before, I have to agree that not all branches make good profits, there are even some with losses, there are some with good profits. But in the end, everything evens out and the group as a whole makes profits. Having many branches is a way of diversification and risk spreading.
If you are low wage earner, believe me you will find time to cook food. I once worked with a colleague (secretary), she brings food from home just to save money, because the place where I worked, the food is very expensive. She would normally pack up the food and reheat it in the microwave.
I won't comment on the diet choices of westerners. Pizzas are relatively cheap there as compared to the Pizza Hut in Singapore.
Huh? You mean to say education is not a road out of poverty? I don't deny that it's not the only road, but credence has to be given to it, afterall is it not education that helped shape technology to bring the world to where it is now. With these technological advancement a concomitant increase in the quality of life and standard of living.
If what you say is true about being educated and not educated. Graduates having debts that they can't managed, while waiters have no debts with their measly Then perhaps all of our universities should just shut down and all be denigrated to being production workers and waiters. If that be so, woe it be to the future generations of the world.
Education has value that shapes and increase the quality of life amongst the people.
Is your observation of hawkers earning more than graduates representative of the population of Singapore. How many of the lifetime income of hawkers exceed the graduates? What is the total median or average income of both hawkers and graduates? You can probably mention Wee Cho Yaw, but how many can make it like him in this current era, where information is critical to one's success. -
Can't deny that the standard and cost of living has gone up tremendously during the years.Originally posted by fishbuff:sigh.. Compared to my young days selling drink at factories in my primary school, and living hand to mouth every month in sembawang kampung. im envious..
Those days, kids play marbles in kampong; these days kids play Xbox and playstation. -
I came back to sg and found that its much smaller here and 1 burger didn't fill meOriginally posted by genie99:I almost died laughing...... no lar really bigger meh? Ok in my opinion its tastier but bigger ?
Land cost and cars are 2 of the biggest tickets in one's life.... without assistance it could take a lifetime to own them (paying up mortgage).
Assuming low- mid income workers
Earn less + the 2 tickets cost a hell of alot more = Sg
Earn more + the 2 tickets cost a hell of alot less = Au
BUT...... not your home country, leave all friends behind, other stuff cost more...... traffic fines cost alot more . But yah, the ones in Oz are definitely tastier, miss the double quarter pounder. -
having a good degree is imperative in SG. never underestimate it.Originally posted by eagle:I wasn't doing that well all the way till O levels... It is only during As that I improved a lot...
Then nowadays, I realised that a cert is not everything. The best way to earn is to come out and be your own boss, and succeed. It's hard in Sg for one to rise through the ranks if you are forever an employee. There's a reason why I'm learning more languages (and other things) with some sacrifice on my final CAP.
business is not easy, but if u want to learn, join a company that allow u to be their sidekick in sales and learn the ropes. i used to work as presales technical consultant with a principal vendor. now im trying to venture out, trying to wean off from my database consultancy works. alot of hardworks.. -
dunno man..Originally posted by maurizio13:Can't deny that the standard and cost of living has gone up tremendously during the years.
Those days, kids play marbles in kampong; these days kids play Xbox and playstation.
we were dirt poor back then but creative enough to find enjoyment in catching fishes by the small stream, spider, marbles, ride bicycle, climb trees to find rambutan etc..
the nearest neighbour was 50m away. and the nearest provision shop was like 1km away. the sembawang beach was relatively clean with no constructed park whatsoever.. watching TV at community centre where ah pek/soh sat around to talk to one another in the open space.
ah. the good old days. that was the singapore that i grew up with and loved. now all innocence was lost... nothing but a fast society that function at break-neck speed with little empathy to the people; work, work, study study, money money... sigh. -
I understand and accept your logic till the education part.Originally posted by maurizio13:I find it hard to believe that Sakae Sushi makes less than $3,000 for each branch. Your uncle is in the accounts department? Even if it were so, does it mean all restaurants make less than $3,000 a month.
I have worked in an F&B chain with lots of outlets before, I have to agree that not all branches make good profits, there are even some with losses, there are some with good profits. But in the end, everything evens out and the group as a whole makes profits. Having many branches is a way of diversification and risk spreading.
If you are low wage earner, believe me you will find time to cook food. I once worked with a colleague (secretary), she brings food from home just to save money, because the place where I worked, the food is very expensive. She would normally pack up the food and reheat it in the microwave.
I won't comment on the diet choices of westerners. Pizzas are relatively cheap there as compared to the Pizza Hut in Singapore.
Huh? You mean to say education is not a road out of poverty? I don't deny that it's not the only road, but credence has to be given to it, afterall is it not education that helped shape technology to bring the world to where it is now. With these technological advancement a concomitant increase in the quality of life and standard of living.
If what you say is true about being educated and not educated. Graduates having debts that they can't managed, while waiters have no debts with their measly Then perhaps all of our universities should just shut down and all be denigrated to being production workers and waiters. If that be so, woe it be to the future generations of the world.
Education has value that shapes and increase the quality of life amongst the people.
Is your observation of hawkers earning more than graduates representative of the population of Singapore. How many of the lifetime income of hawkers exceed the graduates? What is the total median or average income of both hawkers and graduates? You can probably mention Wee Cho Yaw, but how many can make it like him in this current era, where information is critical to one's success.
Perhaps you have misunderstood my point about education. Whether education is a road out of poverty depends highly on the person itself. Of course, I don't deny that it is a boon to have a high degree. However, the fact is that many of the so called "lowly educated" are earning more than "highly educated". Hawkers were only raised as an example; there are many others who succeed too.
Question to ponder: If others can succeed, why can't you (I'm referring to the general public). Yet if you do not have the capability and tenacity to do so, what makes you think you will succeed in any other country in the world, ceteris paribus? -
I want to start small, from an online shop, because the startup cost is small, with at most a few k. Technical details wise, I can borrow books from NLB and self-learn.Originally posted by fishbuff:having a good degree is imperative in SG. never underestimate it.
business is not easy, but if u want to learn, join a company that allow u to be their sidekick in sales and learn the ropes. i used to work as presales technical consultant with a principal vendor. now im trying to venture out, trying to wean off from my database consultancy works. alot of hardworks..
Benefits of online shop
1) No monthly rental fee, at most yearly subscription fee of $60 to $120.
2) No necessity to start with a large range of goods; starting with one or two products is sufficient, and slowly build up from there
3) Cost savings can be translated into product prices, which makes it more attractive for consumers
Disadvantages
1) Deliveries need to be made
2) No instant gratification for customers
3) No trying
I'm observing how a fren's fren is starting out with his online shop (since Aug 07). From my fren's description, this person is earning quite a lot now. Going to discuss with them on how they manage to start, and learn the ropes... Cuz I've an idea that is not done on a larger scale in Sg yet, and I will slowly determine the feasibility with the limited extra time I have now. -
i got one uncle who was only sec 2 and educated in mandarin. when the AMK suburb was completed, he rode around on his bike and distributed pamphlet touting his company of doing tiling. Armed with a a couple of hundred of dollars and 2 penange tile layers, he managed to climb all the way to a big towkay dealing in marine labour supply company. not that i condone his current tactics but that is one rag-to-rich story that i can share.Originally posted by eagle:I want to start small, from an online shop, because the startup cost is small, with at most a few k. Technical details wise, I can borrow books from NLB and self-learn.
Benefits of online shop
1) No monthly rental fee, at most yearly subscription fee of $60 to $120.
2) No necessity to start with a large range of goods; starting with one or two products is sufficient, and slowly build up from there
3) Cost savings can be translated into product prices, which makes it more attractive for consumers
Disadvantages
1) Deliveries need to be made
2) No instant gratification for customers
3) No trying
I'm observing how a fren's fren is starting out with his online shop (since Aug 07). From my fren's description, this person is earning quite a lot now. Going to discuss with them on how they manage to start, and learn the ropes... Cuz I've an idea that is not done on a larger scale in Sg yet, and I will slowly determine the feasibility with the limited extra time I have now.
for online, these are some of the successful online shop that i used to patronise;
- www.fitnessone.com.sg
- www.nutritionpark.com
- www.nutri-forefront.com
- www.atwsg.com
alot of hardwork though as all the deliveries are done in person. but these kind of business is limited by its geographic region that it is residing in, namely sg. the big ones are out there among the other countries and other corporations.
think big.. the online shop are trinkets. aim for big MNCs and big margin. why make $1000 when u can make $100,000? corporates and governments are the one that have deeeeeeep pockets.